Torpedoes poll

Discuss the Star Trek mod(s) for the Vega Strike Engine

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Torpedoes poll

Post by tillias »

There are two ways of making torpedoes.
1. Ships have many torpedoe's tubes ( from 2 to 52 ) and they can fire them even with 52 torps/sec.
2. Each ship can fire 2-5 torpedoes with big refire time. Each torpedoe is really danger... E.g. 5 photons to destroy Galaxy class.
Last edited by tillias on Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by klauss »

Actually, option 2 would be my preferred.
But it wouldn't be very startrekkish.

Let me check the reference, to see if option 2 has any official ground (I'd love it to be that way ;) )

OK - some specs.

Type X phaser output: 5.1MW per segment, a Galaxy Class' dorsal/ventral array is supposed to have 200 of those, making up ~1GW. Though... it's odd... they say a Warbird would be able to throw disruptor pulses at about 20GW - I guess the difference is that phasers are continuous. For instance, I think phasers can fire continuously at full power for a few seconds... 1 at most, I'd say, given the shows. I don't see any specs about that, though. So... gross estimation, a Galaxy Class would fire 1GW beams for 1secs at most (1GW "pulse" output), with an <0.5 sec recharge time (it is there on the specs). So... average 0.66GW sustainable output. I would believe that's consistent with the "equity" between Galaxy and Warbirds, since a disruptor, though powerful (20GW), doesn't last long (0.1 secs, tops) - 2GW sustainable output. Since a Galaxy has many such arrays (3 can fire at once, guessing), that makes also about 2GW sustainable output.

Galaxy-class torpedo tubes: each tube can fire 10 simultaneously (maximum) at multiple targets. No mention of reload times, but judging by the shows, I'd say pretty high (in the "minutes" range for a full 10-unit reload). Payload is 1.5kg of matter+antimatter, equating 135000TJ = 135000TWs (TeraWatt-second).
That seems excessive. And they say it's released in a very, very short time.
So... a single photon torpedo releases 135000000 times the energy of a phaser blast. I'd ditch that info, but that info does actually provide some grounds for option 2 (yay!)

So... back on track:

Typical Galaxy-Class Type X arrays: 1GW 1sec pulse.
Typical photon torpedo: A lot more - able to vaporize a ship if it explodes inside the shield bubble (confinement of the explosion) - and that might happen after softening up shields by the use of phaser fire.

I'd say... a photon hit would damage the hull much more than shields, ingame. So, shields would protect you quite a bit from torpedoes, if you have relatively strong shields (but they would get dramatically drained). But... if a torpedo hit a ship directly, it should cause critical damage. If (and this might require some engine modifications - I'm up for that if you wish) shields weren't too degraded yet the torpedo blows up relatively far inside the shield bubble, damage should be multiplied (actual multiplier up for tweakage - 2 to 10, I'd say), and should be able to decimate most medium ships in one hit. Shieldless vessels, though, should be able to withstand, structurally speaking, a torpedo, but would definitely be crippled.

Like that?

I'll keep digging up some info, to see if there's any contradiction further forward in the timeline (I'm actually reading TNG stuff right now, early TNG stuff).

OH - BTW: According to galaxy class shield specs, though it would be able to protect quite well from a normal disruptor blast (peak dissipation on the order of ~500GW, continuous load at about 2GW - perfect against both kinds of weapons), it wouldn't protect that much from a torpedo. I'd say torpedoes should be able to overwhelm shields and get some damage through nonetheless. A little - the type of energy release should be much easier to stop by StarTrek-ish shields: massig UV/Gamma radiation. They're supposed to be very efficient at that. But it should be enough to justify a bit of damage getting through regardless of shield status, giving the expected "consoles blowing" effect one is accustomed to seeing on the shows.

Further EDIT - DS9's torpedo thingies (not tubes, not anything) have reload times of 15.3 secs (6 torps at a time, max) - and that's considered very short. I don't think 1 torp would load in 1/6th of the time, but 1/3 yes. So... let's say a full load on a galaxy could take 40secs, and a single torpedo in 15 secs. Notice, though, that if you load 6, you can't fire 1, and then the rest at your whim - the torpedo tube has to be vacated prior to launch, since multiple launches work like that, multiple torps in the tube, so there's still a reload overhead after firing any amount of torps.

Oh - and they (wisely) stopped giving specifics on the yield/payload - now they use isotons, which are mumbo-jumbotons.
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official info

Post by tillias »

Ok, let me post here some examples and describe huge difficulties with engine....

From ditl.org:

...Akira:
15 x Pulse fire photon torpedo tube with 300 rounds

...Sovereign:
1 x Rapid fire quantum torpedo tube4
4 x Type 4 burst fire5 photon torpedo tube6 with 300 rounds

...Scimitar:
27 x S3 photon torpedo tube1
1 x Thalaron Radiation emitter (excluded from strength indices)

Do you understand what I'm going to say? :)
Imagine Sovereign firing 12 quantums in serie... ( Though I've seen 4 items serie in "First Contact"; 6 item serie in "Nemesis" ). Now imagine Scimitar, Akira, Nebula with additional "weaponry" block, etc.... Is it interesting to play?

I wonder what will be if I make torpedoes making huge damage. There wil l be no need to use phasers, there will be no big battles, there is no need to manuever etc etc etc. All you need -- launch 12-20 photons serie in all directions and engage warp from sector... Such a universe where only photons flying :)

Though I can suggest solution. I really think that only 15-20% of torpedoes from serie can hit enemy. He can use beam weapons with high accuracy to destroy torpedoes while they are flying. He can simply maneuever to avoid them on short distances, he can use special items to tangle them... Though I can't imagine, how I will be shooting in 15 photons, while sitting in Galaxy class... and having information in my head... that 5 torps will be enough for me... LOL

Don't forget about Romulan plasma "fist". If I make them according to ditl, they should be 10-100x stronger then photons.

===============================================
Anyhow if we will make it close enough to internet statistics, it will destroy any differences between ships and races. Though it will be difference between photon/quantum/plasma/garvitic texture :-/
I have no idea how to make it "near" to internet -- we need some restrictive factor... Maybe special low-output turrets, designed specially to destroy torpedoes? Have we seen this somewhere?
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abolakomadic

Post by abolakomadic »

i don't like it.
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Re: official info

Post by klauss »

tillias wrote:Though I can suggest solution. I really think that only 15-20% of torpedoes from serie can hit enemy. He can use beam weapons with high accuracy to destroy torpedoes while they are flying. He can simply maneuever to avoid them on short distances, he can use special items to tangle them... Though I can't imagine, how I will be shooting in 15 photons, while sitting in Galaxy class... and having information in my head... that 5 torps will be enough for me... LOL
Those countermeasures are officially documented. Anti-torp phasers, i'd say. Have a separately-charged capacitor bank able to fire at any time, low power, just enough to blow the torp before it hits you. Usually, that would be automatic - and I've never seen it on the shows, not once - but, it's documented, and it makes sense.

About those volleys, if torps are to be that powerful, they're more like WW2 submarine torps - they had 4 to 10 tubes, and they fired them all, usually, against big targets, but very few of them actually hit anything. Because... they weren't guided. But, even now, guided ones are easily spoofed. I'd say countermeasures should play an important role, even if the shows never mention them (because the official literature does).

So - the real reason to use phasers, is to overwhelm your oponent, and hinder its ability to deploy countermeasures. I imagine a shield hit would disrupt sensors momentarily (making up stuff - but not without a basis), and having a ship bombarded with phaser fire all the time would decrease countermeasure efficiency a great deal, probably allowing a few torpedo hits. Remember that a few hits wouldn't wipe out the shields, unless they penetrate them before detonation (already weakened). And also remember that shields recharge, so you'd have to continually hit your target, even with torps, to penetrate shields.

I think if torp effect is assymetric on shields vs hull, it should work fine.
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Re: official info

Post by tillias »

klauss wrote:
tillias wrote:Though I can suggest solution. I really think that only 15-20% of torpedoes from serie can hit enemy. He can use beam weapons with high accuracy to destroy torpedoes while they are flying. He can simply maneuever to avoid them on short distances, he can use special items to tangle them... Though I can't imagine, how I will be shooting in 15 photons, while sitting in Galaxy class... and having information in my head... that 5 torps will be enough for me... LOL
Those countermeasures are officially documented. Anti-torp phasers, i'd say. Have a separately-charged capacitor bank able to fire at any time, low power, just enough to blow the torp before it hits you. Usually, that would be automatic - and I've never seen it on the shows, not once - but, it's documented, and it makes sense.
Yes... I understand. But I don't know how to say to turrets to fire only in torps... Otherwise you can simply imagine Sovereign attacked by 5-8 Klingon's BirdOfPreys from different directions... This will be looking like a "Christmas tree" :)
klauss wrote: About those volleys, if torps are to be that powerful, they're more like WW2 submarine torps - they had 4 to 10 tubes, and they fired them all, usually, against big targets, but very few of them actually hit anything. Because... they weren't guided. But, even now, guided ones are easily spoofed. I'd say countermeasures should play an important role, even if the shows never mention them (because the official literature does).
I disagree: in Shattered mirror and Way of The Warrior we clearly see those countermeasures. Though they are "software". As for "hardware" ( anit-torp turrets ) -- if there will be way to make them firing only to torps, I can put them in VegaTrek even now.
klauss wrote: So - the real reason to use phasers, is to overwhelm your oponent, and hinder its ability to deploy countermeasures.

It makes sense! Though I think beam weapons ( as well as disruptors ) can be used as torpedoes. Look at new topic: "Multimode weapons". This is another big talk, but at least I can realize this in VegaTrek even now.
klauss wrote:I imagine a shield hit would disrupt sensors momentarily (making up stuff - but not without a basis), and having a ship bombarded with phaser fire all the time would decrease countermeasure efficiency a great deal, probably allowing a few torpedo hits.
More over -- if you launch torpedoes from small distance, chance of succesfull hit is increasing greatly! The liiting factor is range of detonation wave. On short distance it will hit your own ship. This feature I can also make ( and made for Galaxy and Sovereign ) with current engine features. Look at those shots:
Image
Image
Image

Vor'Cha attack cruiser even don't dream on using torpedoes against Defiant on those small distances :)
So I should repeat -- beam and disruptor weapons are very important. Look at "Multimode weapons" topic for futher discussion.
Also -- this is very important -- one Negh'Var beam shoot have "eaten" 75% of Defiant shields ( Shattered Mirror ). Even though Negh'Var is Klingon Empire capship, all FedShips can use MegaBlast mode for phasers ( "Multimode weapons" topic ).

klauss wrote:I think if torp effect is assymetric on shields vs hull, it should work fine.
I disagree. Do you remember "Nemesis"? There was "fight to death" between Sovereign and Scimitar. And Pickard launched all Sovereign's quantums and photons to it. But it wasn't using phasers ( only to damage cloacking field ). So I should say -- torpedoes are the most powerful weapons in StarFleet and thay make huge damage both to shields and hull.[/img]
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Re: official info

Post by klauss »

tillias wrote: Yes... I understand. But I don't know how to say to turrets to fire only in torps... Otherwise you can simply imagine Sovereign attacked by 5-8 Klingon's BirdOfPreys from different directions... This will be looking like a "Christmas tree" :)
See "pd turrets" in VS. I think if they have "pd" in their name, they'll do that. A better way (so that name pollution doesn't occur) should be found, but that's an existent feature anyway. I'm not sure it's working properly, though, and I meant to debug it for some time, but I don't a) have much time, and the time I have I use for other tasks because b) I don't know much about VS' AI subsystem, so it would take me a great deal of time to debug that. In any case... if it doesn't work, it's a bug and it will eventually be fixed.
tillias wrote:
klauss wrote:I think if torp effect is assymetric on shields vs hull, it should work fine.
I disagree. Do you remember "Nemesis"? There was "fight to death" between Sovereign and Scimitar. And Pickard launched all Sovereign's quantums and photons to it. But it wasn't using phasers ( only to damage cloacking field ). So I should say -- torpedoes are the most powerful weapons in StarFleet and thay make huge damage both to shields and hull.[/img]
Ehm... yes, they do damage shields. I didn't say the would - in fact, I said it would do a great deal of damage. Just not as much as one would expect from 1.5kg of antimatter!
That is... assymetry. It does damage to both, but it's more efficient against the hull than against shields. It's just a way of justifying them not being instantly lethal - it allows you to gamebalance as you see fit.
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Re: official info

Post by tillias »

klauss wrote: Ehm... yes, they do damage shields. I didn't say the would - in fact, I said it would do a great deal of damage. Just not as much as one would expect from 1.5kg of antimatter!
That is... assymetry. It does damage to both, but it's more efficient against the hull than against shields. It's just a way of justifying them not being instantly lethal - it allows you to gamebalance as you see fit.
Good point!
Have you any ideas, how to make this in game?

<Missile name="Photon Torpedo VIF" mountsize="heavy-missile"> <!-- Galaxy Forward Torps!-->
<Energy rate="20" stability="6" refire="35" locktime="1"></Energy>
<Damage rate="750" phasedamage="0" longrange="1" radius="100" radialspeed="125"></Damage>
<Distance speed="300" range="3000" detonationrange="10" volume="100" ></Distance>
<Appearance file="PhotonTorpedo" soundwav="photon.wav"></Appearance>
</Missile>
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Post by klauss »

Not really. But we were brainstorming with JackS on ways to do exactly that.
Perhaps I'll advance some work on it once I get some time, which, with enough luck, would be this weekend.
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Post by tillias »

klauss wrote:Not really. But we were brainstorming with JackS on ways to do exactly that.
Perhaps I'll advance some work on it once I get some time, which, with enough luck, would be this weekend.
If it is possible, make shields reaction different to bolts also. Let me return to Vor'cha vs Defiant. I really think that it didn't use it's disruptors on close distance, because of Defiant's shield system.
E.g. some kinds of disruptors make a very little damage to some kinds of shields...

The same story with Negh'Var -- it used beams instead of disruptors. Though maybe bolts ( disruptors in Trek terminology ) have some restrictions on close distances, e.g. accuracy of fire, activation speed ( delay between you hit 'space' key and real moment when bolt starts to fire ), etc.

For now I have no idea, how to simulate delay between you press 'space' key and moment when bolt fires and "close" restriction for weapons ( e.g. you can fire some kind of weapons only when target is located on some critical range from you. If it is closer then this critical range, weapon won't be able to fire ). Are there any engine features to simulate this?
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Post by klauss »

One could simulate that but not by not being able to fire, but rather limiting weapon efficiency at close ranges.
Say... for instance... that bolts have not only a distance falloff like beams, but also a "fallin". Of course, that would have to be coded - I'm not really sure how hard it would be, but I don't think it would be too hard.
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Post by tillias »

klauss wrote:One could simulate that but not by not being able to fire, but rather limiting weapon efficiency at close ranges.
Say... for instance... that bolts have not only a distance falloff like beams, but also a "fallin". Of course, that would have to be coded - I'm not really sure how hard it would be, but I don't think it would be too hard.
Very nice idea! I'll add it in July for sure.
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Post by Spaceman Spiff »

Completely offtopic, I know. But those screenshots are from DS9 season 4 episode 1: The Way of the Warrior.... right?
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Post by mkruer »

And everything stated above is why i gave up on ST. they couldn’t even get there pseudo science right. Which is amassing because it Pseudo and you can make it up.

BTW I think that the official damage of a photon Torpedo was the equivalent of 64.3 megaton nuke at 100% efficiency.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html

Also don’t sell your self short. A Phaser cannon can hit at 7 Megatons per seconds

Use this as a guide. They compare SW to ST and prove just how F-uped all both series are. LOL
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Post by tillias »

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Completely offtopic, I know. But those screenshots are from DS9 season 4 episode 1: The Way of the Warrior.... right?
Right, Vorcha vs Defiant form Way of The Warrior.
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Post by tillias »

mkruer wrote:And everything stated above is why i gave up on ST. they couldn’t even get there pseudo science right. Which is amassing because it Pseudo and you can make it up.

BTW I think that the official damage of a photon Torpedo was the equivalent of 64.3 megaton nuke at 100% efficiency.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html

Also don’t sell your self short. A Phaser cannon can hit at 7 Megatons per seconds

Use this as a guide. They compare SW to ST and prove just how F-uped all both series are. LOL
It's exciting information! Now I can make it :)
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Post by klauss »

Nice place.
Much better to have retconned data, than just relying on pre-retcon manuals.
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Post by mkruer »

I found that site a while ago when I was doing research for Rylix, and the fact that I wanted Rlyix (later sagas) to be bigger and badder then anything either of them have.

Klauss, have you gotten a chance to read through some of the Rylix Sagas?
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Post by klauss »

mkruer wrote:Klauss, have you gotten a chance to read through some of the Rylix Sagas?
Yep - cool stuff. I wanted to ask a few details, we can talk when we both are online (through IM). Mostly technical stuff.
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Post by mkruer »

klauss wrote:
mkruer wrote:Klauss, have you gotten a chance to read through some of the Rylix Sagas?
Yep - cool stuff. I wanted to ask a few details, we can talk when we both are online (through IM). Mostly technical stuff.
Well you know me, I am always online
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Post by Adonis »

tillias wrote:
mkruer wrote:And everything stated above is why i gave up on ST. they couldn’t even get there pseudo science right. Which is amassing because it Pseudo and you can make it up.

BTW I think that the official damage of a photon Torpedo was the equivalent of 64.3 megaton nuke at 100% efficiency.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html

Also don’t sell your self short. A Phaser cannon can hit at 7 Megatons per seconds

Use this as a guide. They compare SW to ST and prove just how F-uped all both series are. LOL
It's exciting information! Now I can make it :)
The Stardestroyer.net site is not to be trusted, they're SW oriented, and tend to speak badly of other Sci-Fi shows.
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Post by mkruer »

Sad that what they say is supported by, well everyone and they are consistent with everyone else’s assumptions. Don’t let the Star Trek vs Star Wars cloud your judgment.
I don’t really care for either anymore because I got tired of the inconsistencies with both

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Star_Trek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo
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Post by tillias »

Anyhow according to this topic:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 7021#67021

I think that ships HAVE TO fire many torpedoes in serie. Let me make it doing less damage, but corresponding to show ( thanks for torpedoe banks LOL ). In future I can simply encrease it...
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Post by mkruer »

This is what I get so far about the whole Torpedo vs Phaser thing.

Torpedoes can do more damage but are not as precise. So torpedoes tend to be used either a mass volley to weaken shield, but not necessarily destroy the ship, or if the ship is dead in the water used to destroy the ship with as few shots, and as quickly as possible.

Phasers on the other hand are used in a very different way. Phasers are not very effect for destroying a ship, but rather crippling certain smaller components of the ship.

This is why phasers have a > 99% chance to hit where a typical torpedo has maybe 50% chance to hit.

This is the basic principle that needs to be enhanced.
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Post by klauss »

I agree with mkruer.

Torpedo imprecisions have to be excacerbated, beyond what's seen on the shows, and you might get a very enjoyable gameplay.
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