Brainstorming! Systems to include in Vega Trek universe

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:00 am

What are the star systems that should be in Vega Trek? There are LOTS of systems, but I want to make sure that I do not leave out any important ones.

Double bonus points for Romulan, Klingon, and Cardassian systems! I am very afraid of their territories having too few named systems compared with Federation space.

Of interest may be the site by Trek-RPG.net (at which I lurk) cartographer Sir Sig: http://www.nnsw.quik.com.au/sirsig/.

I'll start off (with the easy ones!):
Federation Space:
-Sol
-Vulcan
-Alpha Centauri
-Tellar
-Andoria

Klingon Space:
-Quo'nos

Romulan Space:
-Romulus
-Remus

Cardassian Space:
-Cardassia

Post by **hellcatv** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:04 pm

we need DS9 and the wormhole! Bajor

Nevita · Post by **Nevita** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:35 am

I thought of a pretty good place to get some non-Federation systems that are "official" in the sense that they've been used in the various series. The on-line encyclopedia at StarTrek.com is pretty good.

The link for the system list is here.

While not a complete list, it should be good for a start.

thekryptonian · Post by **thekryptonian** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:12 am

There is also the book, "Star Trek Star Maps" , which shows not only all the systems actually mentioned or visited in the series, but their positions in the galaxy as well, and the boundaries of the various empires, dominions, alliances and other multiplanetary politically defined regions. It shows the locations of literally hundreds of stars, sometimes with two names - one, the name we know it as, and the second, what the locals call it.

I have some scans of one of the major maps that basically shows where everything is, if that would help. It doesn't have exact coordinates for anything, but it would be possible to overlay a coordinate grid to help figure all that out.

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:51 am

I actually own it! There is a scan of the main map available on the site I linked to in the first post. http://www.nnsw.quik.com.au/sirsig/imag ... 0test1.jpg

I really like it for a lot of reasons, but I don't think that we're going to be using it verbatim... it has a lot of little problems with it.

-It's 100% two dimensional, which is mostly okay.
-Sol and Qo'nos are too far apart
-The Romulan Empire is really really small
-The Federation is shaped in a way that surrounds the Klingon and Romulan empires. I understand why a tentacle-shaped Federation can help explain a lot of things, but the Klingons and Romulans AREN'T tiny little enclaves.
-Romulans and Klingons are on complete opposite side of galaxy from Cardassians... which makes the conflicts in Deep Space difficult to visualize.
-Cardassians are too big
-etc, etc.

The best thing about it is that it has a lot of system names, and roughly where they belong. I think I'll probably use it for laying out system locations, but I will definitely not use it exactly as written.

Nevita · Post by **Nevita** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:49 pm

I agree with you COMPLETELY on the points you make about the star charts. In my mind, Romulus/Remus and Qo'nos are relatively close to Earth, and the Federation is more in the Alpha quadrant rather than split evenly between alpha and beta.

I'm going to do a quick sketch of what I think it should look like, and I'll post it so people can make suggestions/changes/pointed comments.

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:59 am

I would love to see anything you came up with!

There used to be a VERY thorough site at www.stdimension.de or somesuch that took on Star Trek cartography in more detail than I've done in most of my university research projects. It's apparently offline while the webmaster tries to find more bandwidth... but I'd really love to see it again.

I have to find a good way to plot out the Vega Trek universe in 3d. Hmmm.

Nevita · Post by **Nevita** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:34 pm

Okay, I've got a rough map, with the most important systems shown. A couple quick comments about how I arrived at the layout that I did.

1. The Klingons and Romulans need to have a shared border. In the ST Star Charts book, the Romulans are "north" of the Klingons. I put the Klingons north to allow for V'Ger to have crossed through Klingon space from the other side of the galaxy (i.e. the Delta quadrant).

2. The Klingons and Cardassians don't have a common border, which explains why the Klingons went to DS9 first before invading the Union.

3. Bajor is relatively close to Earth and Cardassia. This allows for the quick trips we saw in DS9.

4. While I've shown the Federation as contiguous, given the nature of the organization (membership, not conquest), on a small scale the Federation likely surrounds other small nations that we came across in TNG.

Please make suggestions as to changes people feel are appropriate.

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:58 pm

There is also evidence that the Romulans are coreward from the Klingons... the Borg attacked some Romulan outposts facing the Delta Quadrant

Perhaps that suggests that the Romulans and Klingons are on top of each other.

Romulus and Sol are definitely way closer to each other than Earth and Qo'nos, first episode of Enterprise notwithstanding. Kronos is still close definitely, but Romulus is closer.

The Klingons were in a position to wage a major war against Cardassia. That suggests Klingon territory extends in the direction of the Cardassians, either 'above' or 'below' the Federation. Probably not touching Cardassian space, and I'd consider it likely that the Federation had to be crossed by the Klingon attack fleets, which probably was one of the factors that helped to destabilize Fed-Klingon relations in that period.

A lot of people say that Cardassian territory needs to be touching the Romulans, from that line by Dax in "The Pale Moonlight" about the Jem'Hadar crossing the Neutral Zone to take out Federation ships... but I would probably chalk that up to the reach of Dominion-controlled territory at that stage of the war.

Cardassia is obviously a power in the Alpha Quadrant, and there's no way that their size is on the same scale as the Romulans or the Klingons. Bajor is a neighboring star system (15 LY away on the outside), and Cardassia only contacted (and conquered) it 70 or 80 years before DS9 started. They were never more than a strong regional threat to the Federation, since the Cardassian Wars only consisted of border skirmishes of several starships on each side, and some attacks (albiet brutal) on small border worlds.

Post by **hellcatv** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:38 am

did y'all ever play SFB or SFC (star fleet battles or star fleet command)
one was a board game...and it had a very intricate map
with the tholians between the rommies and feddies I remember

and the kzinti and the lyransmmmm

sirsig · Post by **sirsig** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:14 pm

G'day all, I'm the sirsig that Pete has mentioned in this thread and i've taken an interest to what you guys are doing.

So if you want to fire some questions myway i'll see what i can do for ya.

Carddies/Klingon have had a clash over territory before, the B'treka Nebula for instance. So there territory must be say within 100 ly on the outset prob even 50ly or less apart.

Re carddies/Rommies, there is also a ref to Garak being at a carddie embasy on romulus so that may indicate perhaps a closeness there as well.

Cardassia and Bajor are quoted at 5.25ly (i believe) apart. Also the maps fromt Trek Maps (which i helped with re stellar data) matches the onscreen map shot during the war to a degree.

Re V'ger, what proof is there that is come from Delta Quad way. I believe that ref was a passing comment from Rodenberrry that the Machine makers might have been the Borg.

Re stdimension maps, Christen's (which formed the underlaying basis for Star Trek maps) was meshed with a couple other maps based of Christen's layout. I have copies of these if the website doesn't come back up again.

Also I have full scans from Trek Maps which with Geoff Mandels permission i'm aloud (when i get them uploaded) to post on my mapping site (www.nnsw.quik.com.au/sirsig)

Anyways ask away since i reckon i can you guys out a bit or atleast point you in the right direction

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:17 am

AWESOME sirsig! Welcome!

I forgot about the nebula incident! How do you think that the Klingon / Carassian relationship should be handled? I would like to stick as close to published mappage as possible, which would mean Cardassian space at 9 o'clock, and Klingon space at 4 o'clock or so (from the Federation), which is pretty much what is in the Star Trek maps book.

But the two empires are so far apart that way! The only way I can see them being close enough together is if a tendril of Klingon space extends over or under the Federation somehow in the Cardassian direction.

EDIT: I think it's saying now on the stdimension site that it will be hosted at ex-astris-scientia.org. Hopefully soon, I would love to take another look at the maps and the justifications for different things. That's probably the biggest thing I found lacking in Mandel's book is a nerdish/scholarly discussion of why things are the way they are.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:55 pm

Posting again since somehow my previous two posts are missing.

What about including a Dyson sphere (sttng), the Chodak and their ships plus the Unity Device (sttng Final Unity) and the Tholians and their neat web (TOS).

Petey_G · Post by **Petey_G** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:11 pm

Whoa, you're right. Those posts ARE missing. I remember them specifically, but now they are gone. This is somewhat troubling.

A Dyson sphere probably isn't impossible to accomplish. If you're really interested in pursuing that, you should start a separate forum topic for it (this one is about stars and mapping and stuff).

The Tholian web would be totally awesome, but I'm drawing a blank on how we'd implement it.

Stuff specifically from A Final Unity is probably not going to be in the mod. Not even many die-hard Trek Fans are familiar with AFU (me included).

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:31 pm

Thanks. I think I will do that, begin a thread on the Dyson sphere and AFU details. I am currently in the process of extracting the models and references from the AFU game.

The Tholian web implementation, perhaps some kind of booby trap in an unknown sector. Maybe make it so the player must accept some off the wall mission or deed to get free of it. (???) If the player attempts to break thru the web, their ship suffers considerable damage.

Quickly for those not familiar with STTNG A Final Unity. AFU (if I am not mistaken) takes place between the 7th final season and Generations movie. It is alot like a role playing game, except you have all of the characters from TNG to choose from. There are planets and bases you beam into to solve mysteries and ultimately gather clues to the Unity Device. The UD was created by the ancient Chodak race that occupies sectors byond the Romulan Empire, and was in exsistance for hundreds of thousands of years. Before their demise, they occupied most of the galaxy, spreading bases and colonies all over, including inside Romulan space, The Neutral Zone, Klingon space, and a small section of Federation space near the NZ boarder. The UD is a very huge Dyson sphere like object that was thrown out of the time domain by the ancient Chodak scientists to protect the universe from misuse by the Chodak military. It was the source of the Chodak's power, and is also what caused the Chodak empire to crumble after its dissapearance. The UD was used to "mend" the fabric of space-time, keeping everything from turning into isolated pockets of exsistance.

Its a neat game to have in your ST collections. And I have seen it selling on ebay dozens of times. Its meant to run in DOS, but will run in windows with a bit of tweaking to the PIF shortcut.

I thought since the VSST mod was still being developed and improved, that perhaps some of these ideas might be neat to add.

It would be cool to warp into a sector and all you see is this huge sphere with a haze around it instead of a star system.

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:51 pm

Anonymous wrote:It would be cool to warp into a sector and all you see is this huge sphere with a haze around it instead of a star system.

You're definitely right about that! Start that topic and we can start figuring out how we should implement it!

bghfhfg · Post by **bghfhfg** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:25 am

Problem with the Klingons/Cardassians not touching...

The reason the Klingons invaded Cardassian space was so that their empire could grow and the Cardassians looked like someone they could have an easy fight with. If they succeded and conquered Cardassia and added it to their empire, and Cardassian and Klingon space don't touch, then they'd have an empire split in two, with the Federation in the middle. Strange, eh?