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Discuss the Wing Commander Series and find the latest information on the Wing Commander Universe privateer mod as well as the standalone mod Wasteland Incident project.
chuck_starchaser
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Here's my thought: Forget it. You're new in this forum and you're having no final word on anything. In fact, nobody does; we've been doing quite well functioning at the level of discussion and concensus, without any need of "authorities". Furthermore, you've been quite overbearing on a number of occasions, already. I put quite a few hours of work prepairing stuff for you to work on the Demon texture and that seems to be going nowhere. It's not how many jobs you take on, that counts, but what you complete. And canon is not just a matter of knowledge; it's also about choices. Sorry to be so blunt, but you're asking for it; most people that are newcomers to a project show a lot more humility and don't try to grab descision making power. Tone down or go away.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

That only rules out one of four suggested people, Chuck. Do read and respond to all the post next time :P
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

The rest of the post is irrelevant; since the point of this thread is about setting a short term goal, not about assigning portfolios, which is not yours to do in the first place. IOW, you want to be somebody here, start from starts: Finish the Demon. Nevermind who's in charge of what.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

Chuck, please check your PMs.
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Post by klauss »

Hehe... Ferrius... there's a reason why "Historically, WCU has eluded leadership". And that elusion is rather active - somehow, lots of leaders have been proposed, and all of them have been fended off.

Probably because there's just one "natural" leader, the one that would get accepted (which is spiritplumber), but is not willing to take the post.

I'd say leadership issues should be dropped - they're trouble here. I recognize the value of leadership, but I also recognize what attempting to appoint leaders does to this group.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Well, not "exactly" accurate, Klauss. I'm not sure if you were with WCU yet, at the time, but when, what's his name, the French guy, offered to lead WCU, I was actually the first one to support him. He seemed to me, at the time, to be on the level. I even voted for him at an informal voting thread. This was when WCU was hosted by wcnews. It was sometime later that he lobbed some criticism at the WCU team that I said to him, 'sorry, pal, I change my vote'. That was still at the forum in wcnews. After we moved back here, he started gradually taking on the role of leader again, and I was guarded about it but didn't oppose him, until that day you probably remember. I don't mind leadership, but if leadership of a team of paid workers has to be performed carefully and tactfully, all the more with with an OS project. All this business of "final word" is absurd to even consider, IMO. Fact is, we ARE functional, if underpopulated. We operate well by discussion, concesus, even by fighting each other sometimes. A leader would have to know us, understand us, and mesh with our existing modus operandi, while at the same time bringing out the best in us to the fore, and putting some gumption; and be humble enough to concede defeat when beaten in argument, and wise enough not to step on other people's egos; IOW, it's not a job that just about anybody can fill 100%. But then again, it doesn't need to be filled 100%. The 20% that charlieg filled just now by starting the -TODO thread is a great gift I truly appreciate.
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Post by charlieg »

WCU (or VS) does not need leadership. It just needs organisation. The role of anybody "in charge" would be more astute management of people and resources than decision making. Like any viable open source project, the actual direction comes from what the active contributors want to work on. It just needs somebody to nudge them into putting together something that release-worthy.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

Lol! :lol: Me too :P

Off-topic: That's Shodan in your avatar, isn't it Charlie? ;)
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Post by Fireskull »

You guys keep having the right ideas but using the wrong words. What you want inst a leader, its an admin. Just name someone who has their head in place.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Not quite, "admin" doesn't sound gumptic or inspiring; two elements which are needed. Not sure a search for a perfect term is warranted; I think charlieg described it best.
Fireskull, my sentiments for whatever it is happened to you. You're always welcome here, and a member of this family, tho. Hope to see you more often.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

I agree. Admin sounds more like the geek with the thick glasses that manages the SF.net servers :mrgreen:
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Post by mkruer »

Privateer Ferrius wrote:
klauss wrote: Leadership: Spirit can't be the leader if she doesn't want, for she would have to act like one. And she doesn't. Noone here acts like a leader. A leader says: Today we do this, and by next week it has to be done.
Of course... this being a fan project with "free time" contributions make such deadlines hard to meet, and of little consequence when they aren't met (noone will be fired) but a leader will make them both "reasonable" and "compelling", actually motivating people.
Also, a leader would have final say on things. Though Spirit's word is highly regarded, she herself says she's not authoritative canon-wise because of her lack of canon knowledge. That makes it hard to make leadership decisions - a leader should know a fair amount about canon (though not necessarily be an expert).
I agree wholeheartedly, and I feel that we're in need of such a leader if this project is to survive to fruition and completion. Klauss himself has been pretty good in the regards of trying to organize and drive tasks, but per his own admission, he's not the most schooled in the canon.

Perhaps what we could do, averyone willing, is have the leadership spilt somewhat. Klauss could organize tasks and such with Spirit, I can have the canon veto, being the most knowledgable about the canon, and Chuck, being the resident modelling expert could have that sandbox as his.

Thoughts?
As chuck_starchaser stated, we tried that, it’s was not pretty.

We can Allway revist the trust idea.
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Post by mkruer »

charlieg wrote:WCU (or VS) does not need leadership. It just needs organisation. The role of anybody "in charge" would be more astute management of people and resources than decision making. Like any viable open source project, the actual direction comes from what the active contributors want to work on. It just needs somebody to nudge them into putting together something that release-worthy.
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Post by charlieg »

I believe mkruer is better placed for this role than me. He understands VS/WCU/etc a lot better than I do. Wait for me to do more than moan at people and then I'll count myself in. (Maybe one day I'll go thru the wiki etc or annoy people into meeting on irc, but until then occasional forum whining does not a project organiser make.)
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Post by mkruer »

Strangely enough I would vote for chuck_starchaser to be an Admin over charlieg mainly because he doesn’t want it.

I myself would pick up more administrative tasks, but I am too busy with other things in my life so I am relegated to the 50,000ft view of the project. I am trying to focus people on this site but I can’t be here 24/7 to give people directions nore advice, that why i was hoping for trusts.

I know exactly where WCU should go, but I can be a taskmaster.

Edit: Add stuff
Last edited by mkruer on Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

I don't see Chuck taking that up, given his own arguments against having a leader type person :P
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Well, we're trying to find the best solution for no problem at all, really.
Exactly what IS the problem?
The project going too slowly? Well, we're only like two and a half people here if we add all the little fractions. What do you expect?
Lack of organization?
Since when?
I think we're perfectly well organised. The current goal is to get all the elements together to then make a WC1 Remake, and the work is proceeding on course.
It would proceed a lot faster if people weren't stirring up trouble, being nosy, bringing up old threads, and forcing the rest of us to a grinding halt in our work to answer the flood of useless posts about leadership crap.
I wish this week was last week.
Charlieg, don't want the job? Fine, don't take it; but then stop being so opinionated about how we should organize ourselves.
Why can't we just work in peace?
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Post by charlieg »

Um, fair enough. Just lookin' out for ya - wanted to see your hard work going somewhere sooner rather than later into a playable game! Work rate on certain aspects is very good.

'Nuff said. Keep going strong! :)
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Post by klauss »

@Chuck: Agree. We can't organize 2.5 people any better ;)
So... let's skip pointless discussions and get our hands dirty... shall we?
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Post by mkruer »

I hope I am at least 0.1 of the 2.5 man Op :oops:
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

More than that, I'd say :) But this is sort of like a quantum-mechanical computation; the fraction for each one of us is highly non deterministic, wheras the integrated probability wave function's peak value (~2.5) is much less uncertain :D
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Post by mkruer »

chuck_starchaser wrote:More than that, I'd say :) But this is sort of like a quantum-mechanical computation; the fraction for each one of us is highly non deterministic, wheras the integrated probability wave function's peak value (~2.5) is much less uncertain :D
Ah yes… Your BS is quite Elegant :lol:
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

mkruer wrote:Ah yes… Your BS is quite Elegant :lol:
Ah, Thank You... Wish I could return the compliment... :lol:
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