ripped wc1/2/priv data

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Thu May 06, 2004 1:43 am

I still think we should be able to toggle between 'Newtonian' and 'Power-Assist' physics using a key.

Also, scoops would be cool in regular VS as a specialized resource-gathering ship. You could fly through a nebula and scoop up the dust, and then sell it.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » Thu May 06, 2004 6:23 am

Anonymous wrote:hmm, i donno how scoops will go in actually.

i mean its not like i've really talked anything over with the WCuniverse people, and if/when i do my own WC mod, i donno how i'll implement it.

it might just be good for a regenerate fuel + go 15% slower.

ultimately long waits aren't for good gameplay, and dopey flight physics also have to be kept to a minimum. (but fast fuel regen would be gay... BUT we could have fuel for everything, rather than just burners)

i mean even look at freelancer, you fly around pretty much like you're on rails. the only time you can get a little sliding going on is if you burn in one direction, let go of thrust completely and turn. if you simply just turned you'd slide only a little bit.

i'm thinking the sliding whoo-hah should be placed between WC3 and freelancer. WC3 was pretty much on-rails. and IMO had the best combat gameplay of all the WC's. well, WC4 was tougher, but same style. freelancer is a bit more relaxed. something between there would be nice IMO.

-scheherazade

The way I would implement it would be like a cross between Freelancer's engine kill and cruise mode. Press a button, the scoops come in,and you can suddenly accelerate to massive speeds - but when you do, you're constantly depleting fuel, and you can't fly airplane style anymore. Open the scoops up and you begin taking fuel in again, and you can maneuver better. (Actually, I've kind of implemented the first part - play Reckoning and you'll get a "HYDROGEN RAMSCOOPS CLOSING" message whenever you toggle Ctrl-W). Have you played Frontier? I think they have scoops in there.

As for long distances ... well, I've been waiting for someone to implement a version of Pong you can play in the cockpit

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:55 pm

i've played 2.5, is that the latest?

i'm not too keen on having scoops control your max speed.

since for long distances you might need a LARGE increase in speed, the kind of increase that closing scoops just doesn't account for.

also, i can't imagine why you'd wanna turn off power assist.

ultimately, via conservation of energy, anywhere you go using main-engines-only, you go with the same energy spent if you had used main engines + maneuvering thrusters.

so there is no reason why flight should ever turn into main-engines-only (comet-busters-style).
because there is no reason to turn off the slide-control thrusters.

except to make maneuvering goofy.

so in short, goofy-flight-mode = OK, but not for any scoops reason. just because people want the option.

even if directed scoops are helpful in maneuvering, if you transfer them to one side, you have to direct that energy to a larger distance, if R^2 is the falloff, then having the entire scoop area to one side takes more nergy than if its centered. meaning you could have put more power into maneuvering thrusters and achieved the same turn with the same energy.
and if you simply turned off scoops to one side, you'd have less brakign action going into the turn, meaning that maneuvering thrusters will have to work harder to keep you on-path (rather than spinning out), so you still end up wasting the same amount of energy.
There is no logtival real-world excuse for scoops helping in maneuvering. UNLESS thrusters and scoops use different energy forms. But in this case its the same form. Scoops collect fuel reator and by proxy for thrusters. they are dependantly related via some function.

Due to this, i would :

+scoops cause drag, and regenerate fuel
+you need fuel to keep active (moving and functioning) (critical fuel amount forces scoops out so the reactor doesn't shut down).
+superspeed is available as a non-combat transit mode
+transit and combat modes both suffer a drag penalty from scoops out

+force drop out of superspeed if path intersects with something... ships computer does this for you.
+superspeed has limited handling. you don't slide around, but you just can't turn fast. This is to make sure it's only used for transit, and not crazy maddness uber-flying.

+mines NEAR in-path cause drop from super speed.
-AI uses mines to place blockades.

+autopilot automatically uses superspeed.

The end result would be WC-like events.
autopilot and you stop when crossing paths with something of interest.

i would make the cap a function of the ships max speed, but also with a DC offset.

Ex. ship max speed (normal) = 500 m/s.
superspeed = 2'000'000 m/s + [1'000 x max-speed]
so an arrow would go 2'000'000+500'000 m/s = 2500kps.

superspeed accelleration, I'd make it take like 15-30 seconds to reach full speed.

maybe do it logarithmocally. have it take like 15 seconds to get to 75% of the max, and then another 15 to get to 100%.

-scheherazade

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:06 pm

oh yah, don't take those exact speeds as worth anything.

they all depend on the scale of the systems.

i'm thinking that you should be able to fly the diameter of a system in TOPS 6-8 minutes.

-scheherazade

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:08 pm

ok, i just looked at what i wrote...

i'm thinking...

IF the system is really complex, and has lots of places, then it can be like 20 minutes too. but only if there is stuff along the way to make that 20 minutes worth while.

if you're just watching void the whole trip than no need for long trips.

this is all using high-speed transit mode.

-scheherazade

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:02 pm

Scoops are 'autopilot' in Wing Commander. If you want to add 'manual' scoops to the game, they should be all but useless:

You point your fighter in the direction you want it to go and press 'Close Scoops'. Your fighter will continue to accelerate at a set rate, but you won't be able to move it. It'll continue to accelerate until you hit 'Open Scoops'... at which time you'll have to spend the *same* amount of time deccelerating until you can maneuver again. If you fly with scoops closed for ten seconds, you'll have to deccelerate for ten seconds. An hour? An hour. And so forth.

It's not really useful from a 'playing' standpoint - hence you simply hit 'A' in the game and your autopilot does everything. It *would* be a neat thing to include, though... maybe expert pilots can figure out some tricks using such an odd ability?

- LOAF

peteyg · Post by **peteyg** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:00 pm

Yeah, deactivated scoops turn Wing Commander airplane style into a more Newtonian kind of thing... but it's not fun at ALL without the games' instant autopilot.

1. It takes forever for large distances (like what I assume will be present in the Wing Commander mod)
2. It is not fun to turn your ship around at the halfway point of your journey, making sure you do it at the exact right spot, and accelerating in the other direction.

Realistic physics are neat, but hardly necessary for Wing Commander if they get in the way of fun. The only way I can see scoops being incorporated faithfully, and without an instant autopilot, is to add a feature to VS that will do the scoop activation/deactivation for you if you choose. It would still take forever, but at least you wouldn't be forced to break out a calculator to figure out at what precise point to start slowing down.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:30 pm

i'd jsut make it accellerate up to some higher-capped speed.
making it take forever is just bad for gameplay. a good delay is fine, but true-uncapped is just gonna be annoying to control.

and i don't want realistic distances, or even huge ones.
i just want planets to be a decent size, and then be spaced out so they don't look like they're so close. this will inevitably be farther out than mamiya0taru's system layout (which matched privateer exactly), but under no means do i want large or realistic distances.

whatever distance it is to make planets look ok, that's what i'd use.
and then adjust the superspeed so that on average it takes a couple minutes to travel end to end in a system.

-scheherazade

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » Sat May 08, 2004 1:17 pm

Anonymous wrote:i'd jsut make it accellerate up to some higher-capped speed.
making it take forever is just bad for gameplay. a good delay is fine, but true-uncapped is just gonna be annoying to control.

Ten seconds sounds about good. That amount of time would accelerate a Hellcat up to 2670KPS - about the same speed as depicted in Fleet Action. Anything more and it'd probably be uncontrollable - remember trying to steer the Wasp in WCP?

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:23 am

sounds about good to me.

though i'd like a sort of 'S' function for teh accelelration'

have it start a little slow, then shoot up, then level off.

have it take about 10-15 seconds to get to like ~80% of max speed, and hten a few more seconds ot get the last few % points.

just so it wouldn't be like BAM your speed is shooting up and then all of a sudden it stops.

-scheherazade

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:40 pm

Ten seconds sounds about good. That amount of time would accelerate a Hellcat up to 2670KPS - about the same speed as depicted in Fleet Action. Anything more and it'd probably be uncontrollable - remember trying to steer the Wasp in WCP?

It shouldn't be controllable at all - that's the catch. You can't have a magic "suddenly go fast in combat" button -- it's not fun and it doesn't make sense. Scoops are for going from point A to point B at high speeds... not for secret Wasp-style boosters.

The only two times it should be used from a "game planning" perspective are;

- Going from point A to point B. If you want to autopilot without hitting A, you can do it manually with your scoops.

- Running away. Point your fighter in a direction and go -- but you're extremely vulnerable for several seconds as your ship is moving in a straight line while initially accelerating.

Post by **mkruer** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:49 pm

The way I think it should work, is instead of the 10-15 sec acceleration time (witch is still not a bad idea) is when switching mode have a lag time in there. Something like 30 seconds before the Scoop is even activated. This would rule out any possibility of using it during combat

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Sat May 15, 2004 5:44 am

that sounds good too. though in combat, anything more than 5 seconds is about enough to make it useless as a supe-afterburner.

for escape purposes, i'd say its enough that you add this :

superspeed is ONLY available as an autopiloy
and
autopilot refuses to engage near enemies.

-scheherazade

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BradMick · Post by **BradMick** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:42 pm

my thoughts on this...

based on the books, i get the impression the ship still has manuevering thrusters, these allow the ships manuverability instead of being a bullet on a straight line when the scoops are closed. Also, the scoops thing i always felt was more complicated than just 'on' and 'off'. basicly there being say, between 100% and 0%, you've got 10, 20, 30, 40...you get the point.

If you're traveling super fast with scoops closed, and gradually open them, you gradually slow down as the drag is gradually begining to occur. BUT if you're flying at super speeds and slam the scoops full open, you come to a screeching and fairly ubrupt (and hazerdous to your health and your ships health) stop.

also, when the scoops are closed, your ship is no longer getting fuel, and you burn fuel at an exponential rate. i always got the impression that the fuel coming in was either equal to what was being burned, or slightly more than what was being burned, so that you didnt always run at a deficit.

anyway, hope that makes sense. its the impressio i always got from the books. and its the system ima be using for my own space sim as well...why? cuz the idea of this system is just sweetness

Brad Mick