New GUI for WCU (Loads of images ~3.5MB)

Discuss the Wing Commander Series and find the latest information on the Wing Commander Universe privateer mod as well as the standalone mod Wasteland Incident project.
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New GUI for WCU (Loads of images ~3.5MB)

Post by mkruer »

New GUI for WCU
The purpose of this thread is 100% development discussion and not implementation, the GUIs will change.

Goals and Objectives
1. New standardized GUI that is siknable for different factions and races.
2. To have as much information on as few of screens as possible
3. To be as intuitive as possible.
4. To be fun to use and configure.

I am hoping that most of the images I have created will be self explanatory. However there is additional functionality that needs to be outlined to give the developers a better understating of the process so the end user end up with the maximum flexibility within the GUI. The current development is a cross between Mechwarrior 4: Mercs and the Current WCU GUI. I have been using Visio for rapid layout development which later can also be use to figure out the coordinates for various items.

General Principles for the entire user interface.
“+â€
Last edited by mkruer on Tue May 01, 2007 1:49 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

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deleted
My post was made obsolete by a changing first post.
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Post by mkruer »

Oh yee of little faith. Apparently you missed the first line.

“The purpose of this thread is 100% development discussion and not implementation, the GUIs will change.â€
I know you believe you understand what you think I said.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

*********************************************
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My post was made obsolete by a changing first post.
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Post by hurleybird »

I like it. And I don't think theres anything inherently wrong with adding lots of information as long as the information is enjoyable to read and usefull in the game.
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Post by mkruer »

Update, Added Ship Config Image Ideas and Reference examples
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Post by mkruer »

Update: Added Save/Load Game screen
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Post by CoffeeBot »

The commodity exchange I submitted was more for the idea of the enabling of cross-galaxy sales. While the UI is somewhat clumsy, I really like the ability to buy parts from quite a few systems away.

The largest range of systems you can view is inside of the region you're in, usually 10 systems or so, which gives you quite a few locations to purchase from. However, if you're on the border, even the close systems in the next region don't show up. My suggestion would be to make it so that a "regional" display of sale items would be within 10-15 jumps from the current system, no political boundaries.

Also, notice how the market sells everything not just commodities. There isn't a ship salesman, no weapon store, just the global marketplace. You buy something, it goes into your personal hangar on the station it's for sale on -- so you have to go pick it up, if it's on a station that's not where you are.

The only issue I have with the "personal hangar" thing is that, I don't know any possible way that every person in the galaxy could have a hangar on every station. Perhaps the items are just placed on will call, and moved into your hangar when you land.

The sale of goods then goes in the same way. You post an item for sale, and if an NPC is buying, it's an instant sale (less than market value, though). If you up the value, the item will go on sale publically and other players can purchase it (and NPCs, too, I think, if the demand appears). Most "instant" sales, though, are more lucrative if you're at the buyer's location (mainly for NPC sales).

There's more I could go on about, but this isn't a discussion on a galactic market, just the interface :)
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Note: I won't reply to this thread, since apparently the first post can change and invalidate any comments made about it...
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Post by klauss »

@Chuck: Just quote the bits you're commenting.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Well, I can't quote images. Anyhow, CoffeeBot's screen looks gorgeous but I don't understand it, like what are those people on the right?; and it's difficult to read the post AND look at the pic when they are in two different places.

Anyhow, it seems to me that being able to buy stuff at systems 15 jumps away would be an interface nightmare. There's probably like 500 systems in a 15 jump radius. We'd need to show a map with rotate and zoom...

Well, this might be a good thing if we throw in an itenerary planner, so you can plan your route while at a base; and then do advanced trading with the places you'll be landing at.

The problem with unifying trading and upgrades is how to distinguish between something you want to load as cargo, and something you want installed in your ship.
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More options & more info is generally a good thing

Post by bsperan »

hurleybird wrote:
I like it. And I don't think theres anything inherently wrong with adding lots of information as long as the information is enjoyable to read and usefull in the game.
I agree. More options and more game elements only adds richness to a game Universe - as long as it doesn't get in the way of what makes it fun. True, there comes a point where too much becomes 'information overload', but I believe that can often be avoided with brilliant game design and a clever user interface.

For instance, some players prefer to have a simple game interface and minimalism in game options, while others enjoy all the bells and whistles and want to take advantage of most of what's available. In order to please both groups, it seem obvious to have many of these 'extra' features selectable from the Game Options screen. Anotherwords, anything beyond the bare minimum could have check boxes and user custimization options. And everything the game designer expects most players to want or need could be set as the default options.

In fact, it would be neat to have more than one game interface for WCU included. That way, players could simply click in the options menu to select the type of interface that they want!
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Ship stuff really should be separate! ...sort of...

Post by bsperan »

CoffeeBot wrote:
Also, notice how the market sells everything not just commodities. There isn't a ship salesman, no weapon store, just the global marketplace.
chuck_starchaser wrote:
The problem with unifying trading and upgrades is how to distinguish between something you want to load as cargo, and something you want installed in your ship.
I believe the trade, maintenance, and upgrading of ships should have its own interface - handled by seperate "ship salesman" or whatever. Doing so adds a measure of 'realism' and atmosphere. Even if combining these would be handier, I still wouldn't like it.

That was one of those things about Privateer... It seemed ahead of its time. Instead of purchasing ships and upgrade parts from a plain computer menu, players were treated with the scene of a station bay with the ship you are evaluating in the background. It actually looked like the sci-fi equivalent of a car dealership. The ship image even changes as equipment is swapped out. How cool is that?! That left an impression on me. It's one of the strongest memories I have of playing Privateer.

However, I still believe a trader should be able to purchase crates of ship equipment in bulk in order to sell or trade them elsewhere. How else do remote outposts end up with high-tech ship parts to sell? Either the stuff is manufactured locally or they had to import it. But I see nothing wrong with having both a "ship dealership" as well as ship parts to be bought and sold in bulk on the open market.

BTW: mkruer, I'm impressed with how you are comparing the user interfaces of these various games (and taking inspirating from them), particularly with the commodities exchange. I don't expect many players would associate elements of Mechwarrior with Wing Commander.

However, there are many other games out there with elements of ship/vehicle upgrades and commodities exchanges - and not all of them are 3D space simulators either. Some of these are highly acclaimed, too. For instance, Masters of Orion comes to mind. (Specifically MOO II, as the 3'rd sequel as a bit of a bad rap.)

That's another thing. It might be wise to study games that bombed or got bad review because of a clumsy user interface. What makes these so clumsy and frustrating? Like with scientific research, the study of failed experiments can be almost as a valuable as studying success stories.
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Post by mkruer »

Thanks for the feedback.

Unfortunately I have not been able to seriously site down and fully think out the rest of the screen. However I will say up front that I plan to keep the commodity exchange, ship exchange, ship upgrade all separate. I also plan to include a fleet configuration screen which would allow you to set up a fleet how you want it and be able to assign orders and how all the other ships if you feet should act. There might be another simple one for choosing wingmen or women, but that is probably the easier of the screens.

Anyway the main reason why I though of Mech Warrior was first I recently played it about a year earlier. Second and more importantly everyone has been complaining that the current one is too confusing or not very legible, and not very pretty. Using my experience from mech warrior I though their way of doing it was very clever and entertaining. You could literally spend hours tweaking the mech even before you started to play.

I have also played all the versions of MOO the first two were done fairly well but it quickly became a micromanagement hell after the first 20 planets. The third game ironically ended up having polar opposites, either you let the AI do everything for you in which case it became no fun or you ended up again in the management hell and had no fun. In addition MOO3 broke one of the cardinal rules of UI design, and that is getting from point A to point B in as few clicks a possible.
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Post by mat_yarrow »

Would it make sense if several different modifiable GUI "templates" are included to serve as examples (ex. UI in Armada, Privateer,BC3000AD games,Mechwarrior,MOO)?

This would be based on the assumption that since the SQL back-end will handle all the dataset requests then the GUI is easily modified to suit different design goals(ex. strategy vs. space trading/bounty-hunting), so please forgive my ignorance if I am wrong.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

I know that this thread is for the underlying design, but I would like to add that I could happily chip in to construct graphics for the GUI.

Also, another comment: I think the mech config screen from MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries was a very good example of a robust configuration screen that was easy to use and quite deep. Quite sharp graphically too, for it's time.
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Post by mkruer »

Ok I am totally brain fried after not thinking about the layout for so long.

At the moment there are a few major problems with the design. Mainly with the commodity screens and the fleet window.

First the commodities do not allow for someone to purchase items from other planets.
Second I don’t think that there is enough space at the bottom of the screen to show all the ships potential under your command.

When it comes to the fleet window Klaus++ had a clever way he worked out that seemed like it would be the easiest to assign tasks to ach ship or group, but for the life of me I can remember what it was, and I never wrote it down.
Last edited by mkruer on Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mkruer »

And 10 seconds after i post my message i find the answers.

Code: Select all

[22:18] MKruer :  Logic Question for you. or mainly i just want your opinion. Right now i am looking at the Fleet Command Window, and i am having issues with how to construction the relation ships between groups. 
[22:18] MKruer :  I am thinking i should for go actually trying to list the relationships and just graphically show it. 
 
[22:19] Klaus++: What kind of relationships?
[22:24] MKruer :  A simple example is you have a Carrier, 2 corvette and a fighter.
 
 you assign each corvette to protect the carrier independently  so if  one is under attack, the other will not assist. (not if the carrier or itself is under attack) the problem arises were the fighter is assigned to protect both corvette's. visually you can show this, but trying to display the language on the screen it becomes much more confusing.  
[22:25] Klaus++: Hm...
[22:25] MKruer :  does that make sence
[22:25] Klaus++: Does.
[22:27] Klaus++: You know... I'd use a treelike structure, with duplicate entries.
[22:27] Klaus++: That is...
[22:28] MKruer :  but I think that would be more confusing. I was thinking of making a logic relationship display when editing the fleet at for go the tree
[22:29] Klaus++: You have
 Carrier
      Duty
          Fly to: blah
          blah..
      Capship Escorts:
          Corvette group A
          Corvette "Ship name"
      Fighter Escorts:
          Fighter wing A
          Fighter wing B
 
[22:29] Klaus++: Corvetter group A:
      Duty
           Escort: Carrier
      Members
            Corvette A
            Corvette B
      Fighter Escort:
            Fighter wing B
 
[22:30] Klaus++: Corvette "Ship name"
      Duty
           Escort: Carrier
      Fighter Escorts:
           Fighter wing A
 
[22:31] Klaus++: Fighter wing A:
      Duty:
           Escort: Carrier
           Escort: Corvette "Ship name"
           Scout
      Members:
           blah
 
[22:32] Klaus++: Fighter wing B:
       Duty:
            Escort: Carrier
            Escort: Corvetter group A
       Members:
            blah
 
[22:32] Klaus++: Now...
[22:32] MKruer :  logically it would be 
 
 corvette 1 AND Carrier 1 = Protect 
 corvette 2 AND Carrier 1 = Protect 
 corvette 1 NOT  Corvette = Protect 
 fighter 1 AND corvette 1 AND Corevet 2= Protect 
 fighter 1 NOT Carrier 1
[22:33] Klaus++: I don't think that's well defined.
[22:33] Klaus++: For instance...
 fighter 1 AND corvette 1 AND corvette 2 = Protect...
 ...does it mean corvette 1 and 2 protect the fighter? Or the other way around?
[22:33] Klaus++: Really... relationships are one way.
[22:33] Klaus++: So graphs are better suited.
[22:34] Klaus++: That tree structure is only a filtered graph.
[22:34] Klaus++: Not even.
[22:34] Klaus++: It's just a way of seeing the graph.
[22:35] Klaus++: So... in a user interface, you click on an entry and it displays the group/ship referenced on it.
[22:35] MKruer : in this case the first item is the acting ship the other ships are targets.  
[22:35] Klaus++: Should be pretty intuitive.
[22:35] Klaus++: Then why not say:
 Fighter 1 PROTECT (corvette 1 AND corvette 2)
[22:35] Klaus++: ?
[22:35] MKruer : ok ok  
[22:36] MKruer : i was trying to use the logical operators AND OR NOT 
[22:36] Klaus++: Thing is... how do you express that Corvette 1 and 2 should protect the carrier if under attack, ignoring what happens to the other, and protect each other when the carrier is not under attack?
[22:37] Klaus++: The idea in the tree was that duties listed first took priority over the others.
[22:37] Klaus++: So, if a duty called for an action, all other lesser duties would be disregarded.
[22:37] Klaus++: You could color-code the entries to show this.
[22:38] Klaus++: Entries in blue: inactive - the specified duty does not require a specific (priority-binding) action. For instance, escort duty when no hostiles in range calls for an action (move into position), but it is non-priority-binding.
[22:39] MKruer : AND is not exclusive or OR its AND/OR, that aside the default instance is if nothing is under attack then attack nearest threat. (its assumed) 
[22:39] Klaus++: Entries in green: active- duty does require a priority-binding action
 Entries in yellow: inactive but disregarded (a higher-priority action overrides this duty, but it dosn't matter)
[22:39] Klaus++: Entries in red: active & disregarded
[22:40] Klaus++: I do think the tree conveys more info in a more intuitive way.
[22:40] Klaus++: AND it's database friendly.
[22:40] Klaus++: (you could have fields for duties on some units, and the other fields you can build using queries)
[22:40] MKruer : I see what you are saying, and I agree, i was just trying to get it in one shot 
[22:41] MKruer : which i cant, not easily that is 
[22:41] Klaus++: Ok... let's see your idea a bit.
[22:41] Klaus++: What were you expecting to do with those logical formulas?
[22:41] Klaus++: (after all... the formula language can be reworked if needed)
[22:41] MKruer : nothing, i was just saying that's the logic behind it 
[22:42] Klaus++: Well... in that case... I do think the logic behind it is a bit like the tree.
[22:42] Klaus++: Each ship has a set of duties.
[22:42] Klaus++: Which may overlap.
[22:42] Klaus++: When they do, the one with higher priority takes over.
[22:43] Klaus++: What is really complex, though, is defining which takes priority over which.
[22:43] Klaus++: For instance... you may decide to disregard the Escort Carrier duty, if the corvette is facing imminent destruction while the carrier is A-OK and defending itself pretty well.
[22:44] MKruer : Whats really going to make it work is there are more options then just portect. you have attack, Intercepts. and others 
[22:44] Klaus++: But that's a bit too complex to represent on a simple structure, IMO.
[22:44] MKruer : and you may set the priority for the fighter to attack ahead of defend the ship 
[22:44] Klaus++: Yes, that's a given.
[22:45] Klaus++: Defend is not the only choice, and priorities do interact.
[22:45] MKruer : do you have a list of options, Intercept, Attack Defend... 
[22:45] MKruer : I have an idea 
[22:47] Klaus++: I'd say you have stance settings - can't think of names, but basically dictating how a ship reacts on actions performed on it - defend yourself if attacked, ignore attacker and proceed with your duty, break in persuit if needed or not, that kind of stuff.
[22:47] Klaus++: Basically, "mode" information that modifies standing orders.
[22:47] Klaus++: Then, you have standing orders:
[22:48] Klaus++: Attack
 Escort
 Scout
 Patrol
 
[22:48] Klaus++: Capture
[22:48] Klaus++: (let's not forget that one)
[22:48] Klaus++: Shadow
 (follow keeping distance)
[22:49] Klaus++: (very important for spy ships, or scouts, following an aggressor but not capable of engaging it)
[22:50] Klaus++: Support
[22:50] Klaus++: (Assist others in various ways, including ressuply and stuff like that)
[23:16] *** "Klaus++" signed off at Fri Mar 24 23:16:24 2006.
Session Close (Klaus++): Sat Mar 25 16:13:37 2006
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Post by klauss »

Nuts.
Implementing that requires links in textboxes. It's not impossible to do, but it requires some engine-side support - some complex engine-side support. Not that complex as to be impossible, but hadn't realized.
I'll have to work on that.
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Post by mkruer »

Hum...
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Post by klauss »

For the looks of it, you might end up doing all this with flash :D

That would be cool indeed. Let's hope licensing is GPL-ish.
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Post by mkruer »

Right… I think not. I think that python will work just fine.
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Post by klauss »

I wouldn't venture into those domains either - but there was some people there saying that there were tools that made it über easy.
Guess not. Or not all think similarly.
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Post by mkruer »

Well the idea was to create a standard design and then template the different races/faction/groups over it. the way the only thing that needs to be changed was the coloring and some graphics. That’s about it. So I am not worried about the initial hit, portability is the bigger issue. Depending on the DB it might be wiser to create the initial template with the DB in mind and temporarily convert what’s currently in the game to use the DB naming convention.
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Post by mkruer »

Klauss. When you get the time can you help me script out this new GUI. Right now the GUI is scaled to 1600x1200, and all the items in it are aligned to an 8x8 grid. The menu header font is 36pt, the other headers are 24pt, and the rest of the text is all 18pt fonts. Everything else can be scaled down from their. Because I am not interested in the making it look pretty part (yet) I think that we could script it in a simple VG manner, so we can get the flow. Unless something major happens this is the finale layout.

I also changed the main ship window and how it should react. First is the TBFALR, (Top, Bottom, Fore, Aft, Left, Right) this is a one button click to align the ship view to that view. Next is the circle. This is a direct rip of how 3D Studios MAX handles objects. I find it to be to most intuitive way. Inside the circle you can click and drag the item to rotate it on a 360x360 plan, up down right left. (the Square boxes are controls to either up down or left right.) outside the circle to rotate the entire view. (very helpful in repositioning the orientation)

I did make some adjustment to the design. I got rid of the Chassis by moving the items to the overview screen. I don’t think I can drop any more screens unless I can find a better way to group the items.

Anything with a \/ in a box is a drop down window. And the + is to regroup the items into a different hierarchy.

Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Cargo Space
Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Defensive Systems
Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Electronic Systems
Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Engine Systems
Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Overview
Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Power Systems
Image
Ship Upgrade and Modifications - Weapon Systems
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