Quick brainstorming on orders...

[spiritplumber]

What orders do we want to be able to issue to our flightgroup? (These are valid for both the player, via keypresses, and AI, for example a capship ordering around the fighters it launches).

Right now we have:


A Attack my target
P Protect my target
F Form up with me
L Prepare for landing (doesn't actually land yet tho)
H Help me out (attack my attacker)
B Break and attack
E I'm ejecting, recver me

Do we need more? We also have three types of units:

1 "Free-hanging" non-capital ships
2 fighters that were launched by a capital ship
3 capital ships

Right now the matrix is:

<pre>
1 2 3

A execute execute exec, but only aim, not move
P execute execute park self near target, turrets ON
F execute execute execute
L ignore execute stay there and wait for (2)
H execute execute execute
B execute execute execute
E ignore execute execute

</pre>

Do we need anything else?




also, can i have those units please? i hope the "size" var helped.

[chuck_starchaser]

I wouldn't mind Defend Our Weakest; so whichever of my ships is most damaged or losing shields, the rest of my ships attack its attackers.

Homeworld had a whole range of commands; but homeworld was an RTS, so keeping that in mind, read on and take whatever inspires you.

Formations:
You could order your ships to form like an arrow, or on a line, or a V, or an inverted V, or a cross, or a claw, or like a sphere...
For attacking I liked the "wall" formation so that all my ships opened fire almost at the same time.

Flight:
You could instruct ships to stop at firing range an fire at the target continuously, or to make passes at the target, or to fly around the target evasively and take a shot whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Attitude:
Defend only, Agressive or medium.

So, if I had to take some capship, I could tell my fighers to form in a sphere, attack my target, fly evasively taking pot shots, attitude medium-agressive. Then I'd tell my bombers to form in a sphere, attack my target, stop at firing range and fire continuously, agressive; then I'd tell my interceptors to defend my bombers.

I would think for WCU I would at least want to add a 'Form in One Line' command, so that my escorts are next to me and to the sides; and a Defend Only command so that if I'm passing by enemies but they don't attack first, then nothing happens.
How about an 'Everybody Press 3 Continuously' command?

EDIT:
The possibilities are endless:

Pick up ore.
Pick up floating cargo.
Pick up ejects.
Pick up ejects and free them.

How about Dock With Me? Is there a reason why one should have to use the tractor beam to get the escorts back into the ship bays?

[mat_yarrow]

Is there a way to make wingmen stop inspecting their launch vessels? When bases tractor in contraband from destroyed enemies, they get attacked by their own escorts/wingmen.

[spiritplumber]

Civil war over phat l00t? Hahahaha! This is cool!


Will do:) thanks for letting me know.


Hmm.... Formations should be doable. For simplicity of use, let's only have three... you switch between them by hitting CTRL+F multiple times. How many do you want?


Also: Dock with me sounds OK, I just wanted to make the process a bit more interactive for the player -- no real reason why we don't have it in other than that.

[chuck_starchaser]

My favorite formation is a line; that way I can see the other ships just by turning my head. Also, when attacking, we all start firing at like the same time. Second choice is inverted V.
Yeah, there are better interactions than using the tractor beam.
I hate using the tractor beam for anything. And using it for docking ships prevents doing so in combat, which is an option I'd like, if I feel I'm gonna lose an escort and my capship is doing ok.

[mat_yarrow]

Formations can be incredibly useful (claw or X anyone?), but I think the ai needs some adjustments to ensure it doesn't shoot its own side while in a tight formation.

I've seen carrier-launched bombers open fire as they head straight for their targets, hitting everything in their path, including the fighters that launched ahead of them. Capships are not immune to this: turret fire will sometimes hit friendly ships/wingmen lingering nearby, resulting in a free-for-all.

[mat_yarrow]

Formations can be incredibly useful (claw or X anyone?), but I think the ai needs some adjustments to ensure it doesn't shoot its own side while in a tight formation.

I've seen carrier-launched bombers open fire as they head straight for their targets, hitting everything in their path, including the fighters that launched ahead of them. Capships are not immune to this: turret fire will sometimes hit friendly ships/wingmen lingering nearby, resulting in a free-for-all.

[klauss]

Stay with me: Follow my every move, attack the target I attack, defend me from my attackers when they attack.

Bracket Left/Right: A tactical maneuver. The two ships - leader and wingman - turn in opposite directions, one left, one right. The enemy will follow one of them and attack. The other, turns again, catching the enemy from behind and making him one with cosmic rays. Requires precise timing, may be very difficult to implement correctly.

(There are other tactical maneuvers, but I don't remember... chuck?)

Watch my six: use shelton to face backwards while following my moves, like "stay with me". Kind of a custom rear turret. Interesting whacky idea of mine, never mind if you don't like it. It would be pretty similar to Stay with me, except that it wouldn't attack the target I attack - rather, it concentrates on defending me.

Patrol the area: useful for capships to tell to its escorts - spread in a wide pattern, performing early warning and interception of enemy fighters. Early warning can be accomplished by making the AI tell you on the comm screen when it has "bogies".

Scout ahead: Move to destination and make sure it's safe for me to move on (a capship would send scouts before engaging spec and making itself vulnerable by dropping shields).

Break!: Do evasive maneuvers - feel panic - scream - and say your prayers, the enemy is about to blow you to hell. A way to tell your wingman: "you're doing terrible - defend yourself, dummy!, or at least stay out of that missile's way".

Disengage!: Worse than break. Tells your wingmen to get the hell out of this place, before he gets killed. You'll have to tell him to come back later, when everything is calm.

Also, the Form Up order should have a way to tell a specific relative position from, say, python. That would be most useful for the formation spawning (which, I must confess, got forgotten - but I'll get to it again soon)

[chuck_starchaser]

Excellent, klauss; I triple-vote for all that.
Question: Shouldn't we implement a menu for team commands?
I absolutely HATE having to remember key bindings.

Question 2: What do you think of the idea of unifying radar range for a squadron. That is, I could tell my escorts to form in a sphere around me of several miles radius, an whoever's detection of a bogie is instantly shared with all the others. Even better: With a bit of synthetic aperture computations we can multiply our range by sharing our data phase-coherently.

[klauss]

Oh... a C3 computer.

That should be an addon. C3-Master, C3-slave. In fact, I would use those exact names, just as an easter egg. I hope you get it.

[chuck_starchaser]

Command Control and Communications? AWACS stuff?
Yeah, maybe it should be purchaseable...

[Heltarawa]

We need a new interface when it comes to launching and controling craft. Either using the navmap for complex commands and a fast using interface for quike commands. Need a defend me command. Also should be able to designate different targets. If you are running an escort your fighters dont know that so be able to lable that craft so it slaves it to a defend command

[Heltarawa]

Command Control and Communications? AWACS stuff?
Yeah, maybe it should be purchaseable...

Different levels of command and control equipment. you cant fit huge control equipment on a fighter. should have 3 sizes. small for fighters least amount of commands possible. Medium for galaxy transport size ships medium amount of commands . Large for capitol ships all comds avalible

[chuck_starchaser]

Electronics, sensors, computers and communications typically don't take up much space at all, and are very light, and low in energy consumption. I don't think there's a need to tie them to ship size; and doing so would prevent you from tranferring yourself to a fighter and commanding your fleet from it.

[Heltarawa]

Its not just the computer you must think of the communications and IM not thinking just sector wise Im thinking of commanding ships over an entire sector run a campaign to relive Vega fight the kilrathi on multiple fronts for that a large command and control station would be needed to control and moniter dozens of capitol ships

[chuck_starchaser]

Ah, I see what you mean now. At that level, though, we should have a strategic map display, and the ability to select a group of ships, and tell them where to go and whom to attack like drag and drop, sort of like Homeworld.

[mat_yarrow]

Or maybe follow the interface used by the older Simulations Canada games, ie. no graphical interface except for the map, orders are typed/key bindings are used.

Yep, the bygone days of DOS gaming, when Adlib and Sound Blaster was king(except when you had a Gravis sound card), "cloaked" drivers abound, and boot floppies and a black belt in DOS/memory management was needed to fully enjoy the experience (Strike Commander ate all my lower memory!).

[spiritplumber]

Using a commandline for orders? I like it. A lot actually.

[klauss]

More so when there's already a commandline

I was going to add the ability to fire any bindable acction from the commandline. Like:

action SheltonKey

Or, I was going to try,

SheltonKey

alone.

That could go particularly well with the current way of giving orders. You just specify a new order, but give it no specific key mapping. Without a mapped key, you can still trigger it from the commandline.

[spiritplumber]

how do I call the commandline btw?

[klauss]

If you have the latest CVS, use ship_commands.cpp/h as an example. It's pretty darn simple (I used the example in the comments as a guide). Basically, you register a function that will handle a command, and how do you want the parameters passed (there's a lot of ways, very convenient), and concentrate on doing your stuff.

If you're referring to bring the console up, while playing, it depends on which version of CVS you're using. The early ones, used the [`] key. The shelton key... sadly, so I made it use a key binding: ConsoleKeys::BringConsole - just bind that to any key, and that key will bring up the console. I set CTRL-F1 since I didn't know where else to put it, but it's a little uncomfortable if you're going to use it often.

[chuck_starchaser]

Name Basic flight maneuvers
About Basic flight maneuvers include Immelmanns, wing overs, afterburner skid turns and diamond breaks. Every pilot is expected to know basic flight maneuvers before leaving the Academy.

http://www.wcnews.com/encyclopedia/show ... php?id=613

[klauss]

Immelmans make no sense in space. I think they included those since they used a ww2 flight dynamic. It WCU will use that kind of flight dynamics, then It's OK, I guess. Again, it would make little sense to order your wingmen to perform an immelman. But, having them programmed in the AI so that they do all those things as part of dogfights could be pretty pretty.

[chuck_starchaser]

Actually I've no idea what any of these maneuvers are; I always skipped flight academy classes

[klauss]

I don't remember much about the diamond break... just a little, and I don't dare write it down in case it's absolute BS.

But I do remember the immelman. It's a maneuver in which, in an airplane (in space, you'll see, is useless) you can turn any way you like real fast - even 180 degrees. You pull up, until you're aiming vertically. Then roll over, aim at the desired heading, and pull up again (leveling yourself). You'll be upside-down, so you keep rolling over until you're upside up again. You have to be flying pretty fast to make it to vertical heading, but it can save you the several seconds it would take to make a full turn the usual way (and it's harder to follow by your attacker). And, if that's not enough, you gain a lot of altitude in the way - which is good if you're under attack.

I have a bunch of those in the EF2000's manual. I'll dig some, and perhaps scan a few pages, so we know what we're talking about.