[PROPOSAL] Preliminary release (0.1) ?

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:40 pm

It appears that we have just about everything we need to package a preliminary release of WCU. I'm soliciting ideas on whether we should do it now or later. Here's a couple pro/con for both.

Now
-----
+ We have an already playable game, thanks to VS and PR1.1.
+ We have a good deal of content thanks to spiritplumber and others.
+ We have an installer (for Windows) and updated sound files.
- Right now it isn't much different from PR1.1 (most systems aren't available yet, for example)
- Right now we only have a handful of unique storylines/missions/etc.
- Our project structure isn't set up to handle an influx of new players/testers/developers that could arrive if we release & publicize now.

Later
------
+ There's a lot of good ideas in the pipeline (military 'campaigns', storylines, etc)
+ There's discussion to move from XML to SQL, which will take time to implement and fully utilize.
+ We can craft a project structure, task list, etc... that will clear things up and hopefully get more people interested in helping out.
- Working too long without a release will drag everything down (will this never end syndrome)
- Developers may drift away as they get tired or burned out. WCU has been around for a while now.
- Interest seems to have picked up recently; postponing a release might cool off that enthusiasm.

An alternate idea is to go ahead and distribute a 0.1alpha file just for people to play around with, rather that say this is our 0.1 'release'.

Anyways, please post your comments and suggestions.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:16 pm

Only slightly later; I just got an email from klauss saying he's got a couple of little problems with his filters for the comms, but that he should be able to solve it soon. Didn't give me a prognostic, but I'd guess he means tomorrow at the latest.

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:31 pm

'Now' doesn't mean tonight. Now means within the next 2 weeks or so. Later is 2-3+ months.

[edit] Another bonus to having something playable sooner than later - we can hand out mini-CDs at DragonCon. Talk about advertising. Woo!

Post by **mkruer** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:47 am

Option #3: Work on WCWI, which some parts will be directly introduced into WCU if they are not already there.

Post by **MamiyaOtaru** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:16 am

crouton wrote:Another bonus to having something playable sooner than later - we can hand out mini-CDs at DragonCon. Talk about advertising. Woo!

I bet that'd go well. We could hand out priv remake CDs too, I know someone who'd be delighted.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:08 am

Lately I've mostly been punching in the last few ships... after which I'll do that wc1/2 thing... after which I'll quit since the project is in good hands

as for releases... don't ask me, i'm too scatterbrained ^^; i'm all for it but i would need at least until monday to kludge something usable.

cheers! i'm going back to sleep.

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:08 am

I've helped out on WCWI... what is there left to do on it?

spirit: Don't leave! The fun is just beginning. There's plenty of things to do that surely interest you... like the SQL database conversion or the storyline arc(s).

Post by **klauss** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:51 pm

@spirit: Or just playing. I bet you can't play for a week straight without modifying anything. That happens to me, at least. Besides, if I were you, I would stay around just in case chuck and I realize the proposed soundsystem. If that comes true (and I think it will), you can't miss it.

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:25 pm

MamiyaOtaru wrote:
crouton wrote:Another bonus to having something playable sooner than later - we can hand out mini-CDs at DragonCon. Talk about advertising. Woo!
I bet that'd go well. We could hand out priv remake CDs too, I know someone who'd be delighted.

Actually, we should do a combination CD. I found out that Mini-CDs only hold 180MB (up to about 190 max) so it'd be difficult to cram much into that. With the standard 700MB regular CD's, we could put WCU, PR, VS itself?, plus maybe some promo materials (movies, wallpapers, etc)

500 CDs plus 500 paper sleeves end up pretty cheap, about $100 for the CDs and $25 for the sleeves. Getting labels on the CDs might not be so cheap, though. Figured we could hand out around 125 per day (4 days).

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:32 pm

@spirit:
ditto
Not to speak of genetically trained AI's.
Not to speak of SQLite systems.
Not to speak of cities, space elevators, and AI's that follow routes and do things with purpose.
Not to speak of using shaders for planets... SPIRIT! I've now come to the realization that you missed my posts with my glsl demo modelling Earth...
It's here (scroll down for pics):
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... c&start=30
Soon we'll have planets looking like that.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:22 pm

I did miss it

sowwies... looking now. As for cd's... sure why not? I'll be working late today but I have tomorrow off so I can try, clean my stuff up, punch in a couple more ships and upload a packed executable.

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:51 pm

If you would just commit your newest stuff to CVS, that'd be even better. That's where I'm compiling the installer from.

I'll get to work on how to make an Autopackage'd Linux version, too. If there are any Mac users out there, let me know!

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:55 pm

I am going to take spirit's latest release and roll it into the Windows installer tonight. I think we can earmark this as an 'alpha' or 'sneak-peek' release. Most of the content is there, but the testing and final cleanup hasn't been performed. I'll try to remember to use a more appropriate splash screen.

I will try and get this uploaded to Sourceforge tonight so everyone can get at it.

Linux autopackage is underway - that may take a day or two. Mac is still in limbo.

I'll hop on IRC tonight as well... #wingnut on irc.wcnews.com, we can spin off a new channel or what not as necessary. Come chat it up.

thehawk · Post by **thehawk** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:54 pm

If no one has any objections (or, more importantly, problems) with the new systems (I posted the *.ZIP in the 'Problems with Sol and Alpha Centauri' thread) I would like a decision on the Proxima/Alpha Centauri Siamese twin and then to fold the new systems into the mix?

I will try to be in #wingnut later on, but cannot guarantee.

-thehawk

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:56 pm

Processing of the sounds and bar speeches is complete, klauss tells me, but not yet uploaded to the server; and he's making final adjustments to the comm files' processing. You still want all the sound files in one .tar file? If so I think it's best for klauss to wait till he has all the sound files, then upload them all in one file.

Crouton, there's a possibility we might add a couple of things to the engine to go with these sound files. How difficult would it be to make some last minute changes to the installer?
The issue is this:
For the moment, all the sounds are mono, as in the original. However, some of the sounds, such as bar speeches, could use some reverb to fill the gaps of silence, which sound unnatural. But the problem is that reverb in mono also sounds unnatural; reverb should be stereo. But then the problem is that we go from 40 megs to 80 megs download, if we change all the files from mono to stereo. And the thing is, the original plan was for such reverberation to be added by the engine at runtime, via EAX.
Similar case with many of the cabin sounds. Right now they are mono, but they would sound better in stereo, and with 3D positioning; but if we add stereo imaging to the files themselves, it will double their size.
I'll try to get the sound holography function done tonight, and then I'll see if there's any other stuff I can help klauss with... like EAX reverb or OpenAL 3D positioning.

thehawk · Post by **thehawk** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:04 pm

crouton wrote:- Our project structure isn't set up to handle an influx of new players/testers/developers that could arrive if we release & publicize now.

To me, this looks like a big -big- negative. Before the release is made, I think you should change the project structure to be able to handle the expansion. The large majority of projects fail because they do not take enough time with their planning and structuring.

-thehawk

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:25 pm

What I would like is some "base buzz" and/or "bar buzz" sound playing in the bckground... bases would be at least a little noisy

it's a cheap/simple way to add immersion, i feel.

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:01 am

Chuck - You guys can keep working on the other game sounds. Don't worry about making it into this 'release', as it's really only meant to give folks a base to play/test/work from. Developers will probably still use the CVS (which I am still learning how to use.. heh) and so forth.

hawk - I agree totally. That's why I'm kinda angling this as a preview/alpha. We can test out what kind of organization works and what doesn't, and try to get everything set up for the future. On the star system tip, I'll try and talk to ya on #wingnut about it.

Spirit - Excellent idea! Not every base would be busy, and they would sound a little different... scientific stations and pleasure planets probably have a different groove.

To everyone - all I want to accomplish with this release is to bring everything together into one unit. A lot of work has gone into WCU and related projects, and will need more work yet. This is a good point to take stock, look at what we've done and want to yet do, and make decisions about what WCU will be.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:44 am

@crouton: Yeah, but WCU is in pre-Alpha in the general sense. To say "this release is alpha" is rather redundant, and it would be better, I submit, to wait a few days and have sounds with it. The whole point of having a release is to show one of those rare instances when all of the parts in a package aren't perhaps yet complete or final, but at least they are all there and sort of work together well. To make a downloadable without the sounds, sounds to me like the opposite of a release, by tradition. We just need a couple more days.

@spirit: Great idea. Privateer 2 had that. Anybody has the Privateer 2 sound files around?

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:56 am

Chuck: Good point, but I offer a counterargument. Currently, the installer stands at 211MB without barspeech + campaign folders. Those are the sounds that we've tenatively marked for the download pack, right? If we were to bump the remaining sounds and replace them with your new sounds, that's another 40MB or so to the base package size... which is already pretty large to begin with.

To be honest, if nobody is really interested in an installer file right now, I'll take a breather and wait. There's more than enough stuff to 'work on' to keep us going for another month. Just sound the word and I'll hold off.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:01 am

A basic windows installer can be put together with winrar in a few minutes... let's work on content first

as for me : i am almost done with the next batch of ships, and i cleaned up the various mission briefings a little. Meow. Also a few extra touches like you being offered courier cargo missions if you're on a fast ship with a small hold, patrol missions being always wanted if you're in a frontier system, etc.

what i need the most are:

* kilrathi civilian ships
* base interiors.

crouton · Post by **crouton** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:03 am

Alrighty, content it is.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:54 am

No, exactly, I don't want to bump up the size of the download for the sounds, but the sound part of the engine may need a couple of little touches so that we're not bored with pure monoaural sound coming out of the speakers.
But I'd say, couple more days to finish the comms, and a few days for the engine part, and should be all done in a week.

thehawk · Post by **thehawk** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:24 am

Is it possible to break things up into seperate downloads? Possibly even with seperate installers? Will things still work without sounds for example? That way people can download them if they want to, but can get by without? I know it is not a great answer, but it might help a little bit.

-thehawk

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:36 am

Sure, we could have a sounds.zip that you download and unzip in the main folder; but it takes away from the symbolic significance of having a self-installing release. Besides, it's also the part of adding a few sound tweaks to the engine that will make a lot of difference without too much time and effort. This holographic thing I'm working on right now is going to kick capital ass, if we get it in for the release. Will make listening through the speakers almost as good as listening through earphones. So, given there's no pressing rush, I hope the release can wait for us just a little.

@spirit: Great idea, the courier jobs.

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[PROPOSAL] Preliminary release (0.1) ?

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