Wing Commander Universe Trust

Discuss the Wing Commander Series and find the latest information on the Wing Commander Universe privateer mod as well as the standalone mod Wasteland Incident project.
charlieg
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Post by charlieg »

chuck_starchaser wrote:My main beef is with the fact that 2.5 people are doing 95% of the work, while everybody else is fighting for a piece of the recognition pie.
Fair point... 'cept that Brad is currently 1 of those 2.5 people. So what is your beef with him being in [or in charge of] the model trust?
chuck wrote:Some things are better not said or written, or even thought about.
You really ought to start applying this to yourself before, as one of your suggestions, it holds any weight. Just look at the long windedness, general melodramatic nature, and arguably pointlessness of most of your posts on non-audio matters. (Your audio-related posts have been great!) It's good that you take WCU seriously, don't get me wrong. But easy up on the stress dude. Too much talk isn't going to get things done, but neither is so much stressing. Let chatty people chat and let proactive people be proactive, and at some point down the line the stars will align and karma will flow.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

charlieg wrote:
chuck_starchaser wrote:My main beef is with the fact that 2.5 people are doing 95% of the work, while everybody else is fighting for a piece of the recognition pie.
Fair point... 'cept that Brad is currently 1 of those 2.5 people. So what is your beef with him being in [or in charge of] the model trust?
Did I say or suggest otherwise? The 0.5 part in my subjective accounting is made up of many quarters, thirtysecondths and 128th's fractions...
chuck wrote:Some things are better not said or written, or even thought about.
You really ought to start applying this to yourself before, as one of your suggestions, it holds any weight.
I don't get your meaning.
Just look at the long windedness, general melodramatic nature, and arguably pointlessness of most of your posts on non-audio matters.
I would say exactly that of all the posts arguing my single, simple request I made on the second post in this thread. I think you are adding melodrama right now, with this unexpected and unfair personal attack. All I asked was for one little sentence to be removed, namely "...and what they decide sticks." This request has been turned into a melodrama by others, not by me.
In fact, all I've been trying to explain to all the thick ones around here is that I DID ****NOT**** MEAN THERE SHOULD BE NO FINAL SAY RULE, but simply that it is a counter-productive irritant to have that particular sentence written there.
But will you understand me now?
Probably not.
A few more posts and somebody will accuse me of saying there should be no organization at all...
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Post by BradMick »

I understand what you're saying....but what i don't understand is why it would be/it is a 'counter-productive irratant' to know that (as it stands right now) 2 people have the final say in what is good and what is not. the authority needs to be established, so people aren't like 'well who the hell are you to keep telling me to redo this model?!' its already known 'i'm one of the head guys that says what goes, thats who.' and the idea is that they don't have to constantly defend that position, its clearly expressed in a written statement. the authority is known, and thus recognized as being known. if someone trys to buck it, then its an automatic dismissal of that persons work. if someone isn't going to be willing to do what is expected of them, then its counter productive to continuously try to work with that person. fish or cut bait. thats how it works. if the person refuses to be a team player, play by the rules, and listen to those who know what they're talking about and have been placed in the position of authority, then they need to be gotten rid of. no sense in trying to make some boneheaded person do something they refuse to do.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I fully agree with the last part. That's what mkruer said in an earlier post, and filled my heart with relief, namely that if someone becomes a serious problem, he'd kick him. That's the kind of thing we all need to understand. But if you have a written rule that such and so has final say, inevitably some otherwise genuine discussion will be shortcut by some appeal to authority. That's what I would REALLY not like to see happen. Now, like I said, I do believe there has to be 'final say' rules, as a weapon of last resort, but be kept hush, for the reason stated above. And the purpose of having the final say attributions would be as a final buffer before mkruer's boot kicks into action. Additionally, I'd make it a rule of decor, that nobody who has 'final say' on any matter, should ever say so to anyone. When someone new needs to be told he or she is going beyond reasonable argumental style or boundaries, I submit it should be someone else's job to PM them to say "My friend, this guy you're calling an asshole is the one who makes final descisions in your subject of argument; tone it down for your own good."

Is this much to ask? So, for example, if an artist contributes a model and you tell him "look at this picture of the original, see? those engines are twice the size", and the artist will probably be convinced. If not, you could try and explain it in some other way. If he's still not convinced, you try a third way. In the one in a million case you don't get anywhere, you PM me and say to me, Daniel, I can't handle this guy.." So, I say to you "hold it, let me talk to him", and I PM him a message you'll never know what I said, and now he's all polite and nice and submissive... ;-) Same goes if somebody in audio won't shut up; I might ask you for help.
Last edited by chuck_starchaser on Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Allright, for the Audio trust, I tentatively nominate fizze, klauss and myself. I'm still in the dark as to who has been in charge up to this point, and whether they would like to continue participating in Audio.
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Post by klauss »

Hey, I'm an audio amateur, professional and music enthusiast (if not musician), so I do <b>want</b> to do audio stuff. As for being able to, I think I can, but I'm real busy both in school and at work. But since it's something I like and enjoy, I think I can find the time. I'm just quite limited on the online time, though. I'm usually online during the morning, since I don't have school, am at work, and these days work has been quite slow paced. If anything changes, I'll let you know, of course.
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Post by charlieg »

chuck_starchaser wrote:I think you are adding melodrama right now, with this unexpected and unfair personal attack. All I asked was for one little sentence to be removed, namely "...and what they decide sticks." This request has been turned into a melodrama by others, not by me.
I apologise, it was not meant as a personal attack.

It was more meant as a tongue-in-cheek point that you make a lot of noise - so much so that your original point has been somewhat lost - and that you then suggested other people make too much noise (my interpretation of, "Some things are better not said or written, or even thought about").

Um... hmm... *Happy thoughts* ;)
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Oh, I see; no, the "some things are better never said.. " thing was not meant at all as a hint or tongue in cheek allusion, at all. I was speaking specifically of "what if's", of ugly scenarios. Remember my example of the bar? It could be any kind of store, or club, whatever... If I see a sign that says "Those who do X will be punished..." I feel uncomfortable. Of course I hope that those who do X WILL be punished, but I just don't like to see a sign about it. It brings ugly thoughts home. And that's my cow with the phrase "... and what they say sticks." It conjures up ugly scenarios.
I just say it is aesthetically dissonant.

No prob, friend; I suddenly felt everybody was attacking me personally.
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Post by crouton »

Nobody's attacking you personally. :D You're just a bit touchy at times, that's all.

Back to the topic?
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

klauss wrote:Hey, I'm an audio amateur, professional and music enthusiast (if not musician), so I do <b>want</b> to do audio stuff. As for being able to, I think I can, but I'm real busy both in school and at work. But since it's something I like and enjoy, I think I can find the time. I'm just quite limited on the online time, though. I'm usually online during the morning, since I don't have school, am at work, and these days work has been quite slow paced. If anything changes, I'll let you know, of course.
That's the Spirit! ;-)
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Post by John Cordell »

OT: I've read a bit through the new poped up threads here and i can only say, thank god i no longer have to see chuck_whatsoever over at crius :lol:
Last edited by John Cordell on Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BradMick »

bah, chucks not a bad guy. just as opinionated as the rest of us, and as doggedly determined as the rest of us to get his point across too.

and i mean, while i may not agree, i understand where he's coming from. and, putting things in terms for the worst case does serve a purpose to an extent. so, its all good. everythings been pretty balanced, and everythings now workin smoothly.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Thanks, Brad. Seriously; for the first time I get the feeling somebody understands the first thing I'm saying. (And you thought you had problems getting thoughts across... :D )
And in the spirit of my olive branch post, I'd say that while the question whether to respect or not (or stretch) canon must remain open; I'd like to say that my opinion remains, as I posted it there, that understanding canon issues is a first step in the descision process just stated. And for the purpose of establishing what canon IS, in any particular issue that comes up, I think nobody would be better qualified than LOAF, so I would like to nominate him, even in absetia, and if it's any of my business to nominate people, for the canon trust. (Just as long as the canon trust is not given authority above developers, that is; --don't think I'm drunk this morning...;-) )
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Post by BradMick »

well, my idea of the trust is that the folks in it are the ones who are in mutual control (if that makes sense) the ones in the trust are the ones calling the shots and all are eqaul. there is no one set person lording over everyone else. each trust is responsible for its part of the overall, everything being contributed here, or at crius...whichever/whatever. the canon trust isn't higher than the modeling trust and vice versa, and the modeling trust doesn't lord of the coding trust. we're all the key guys/gals who work together to make this thing happen.

yeah.....i think thats how i understand it...heheh[/list]
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Post by spiritplumber »

I know jack about audio and very little about graphics. I know a little about AI i hope. I know a lot about poking my nose into something and getting enough of a feel for it that I can expand its functionality, though :)

seriously, i don't know who's calling the shots... except for the drayman turrets. i am the supreme empress of drayman turrets. :wink:
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Post by charlieg »

Could this be made sticky as per mkruer's suggestion in another thread?
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

You know, I do think some organization is in need, however to coerce it defeats the purpose of organization, because then people will just do the minimum required and not really follow it anyways. I mean, that's why I tried to centralize my various projects into one thread; for the sake of organization, and also because for all the arguments I have (and chuck can attest to :P ), I'm more the lead by example type than anything - which is exactly the number one reason why I'm so frustrated being stalled out on the Demon.

It could help in more ways than one for people to just outline exactly what it is they're doing. I don't mean down to minute details, but take my Workshop thread as an example: what your projects are. That way someone doens't come along with say an awesome Bengal model when Chucks already a good ways into his own; when you ahve it clearly outlines what it is you're doing, not only does it keep people from stwepping on each other's toes, it also helps others know what they have to do as well. So if DualJoe goes and makes another model, for example, I would know to prep myself to do another texture.

Just some thoughts.

I also agree with CharlieG, this thread should be stickied.
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Post by mkruer »

Stickied
I know you believe you understand what you think I said.
But I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Wing Commander Universe Forum | Wiki
Wing Commander: The Wasteland Incident
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Post by mkruer »

Privateer Ferrius wrote:You know, I do think some organization is in need, however to coerce it defeats the purpose of organization, because then people will just do the minimum required and not really follow it anyways. I mean, that's why I tried to centralize my various projects into one thread; for the sake of organization, and also because for all the arguments I have (and chuck can attest to :P ), I'm more the lead by example type than anything - which is exactly the number one reason why I'm so frustrated being stalled out on the Demon.
Welcome to the club, I am a 90/90 person myself. I get 90% done then it take me 10 times longer to get the last 10% done. Lets see I have the DB, the New GUI, The model repository which spirit helped clean up. If you disappear for a month or two I know what happened. :LOL:
I know you believe you understand what you think I said.
But I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Wing Commander: The Wasteland Incident
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

LOL. How true eh? :P
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