A manifesto

Discuss the Wing Commander Series and find the latest information on the Wing Commander Universe privateer mod as well as the standalone mod Wasteland Incident project.
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Penta
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A manifesto

Post by Penta »

All,

I've been reading, reading, reading...Witnessing the dispute between the various factions which seem to be emerging with what I'm calling the "Vega Stream" (Privateer-Remake and WCU, the Wing Commander mods/remakes/we-gotta-find-a-better-word-than-those using the VegaStrike engine).

OK, thusfar we've two sides, one of which I'll call the Retros, (with apologies to those in this camp, as I can't think of a better term at the moment), and the other I'll call the Expansionists.

The Retros want a remake with high fidelity, almost complete fidelity, to the 1993 DOS version of Privateer. No expansions, no new features, at the least. I'm unsure what the general position is amongst this camp on "technical updates", such as fixing the bugs in Privateer, or with regards to graphics and sound and the like, so I'll just note that and go on.

The Expansionists are the types who want to add new features. Often, lots of new features. Whether it be ejection seats, turret AI, wingmen, new fixers, new commodities, or what.

There's divergence. That's good and healthy, not to mention inevitable.

Unfortunately, it's seemed to have gone beyond simply having differences into throwing rocks at each other. The fact that such rocks have apparently (whether it's true or not, it's what is percieved in some quarters; I can't speak to it either way) included bans on persons admin disagree with solely for disagreeing with them makes matters worse.

Which is a shame.

Why?

Because you have two mods, in more or less the same universe, working from the same technical base (VegaStrike). There is a lot of room for collaboration, for sharing skills, ideas, bugfixes, and product (such as art among other things). And that collaboration can only make things better. Better for developers, and (most importantly) better for players.

So I'm going to ask everybody to call a truce. My thoughts on what such a truce would entail:

Within the Privateer Remake outside of the WCU mod, there could be a case made for an "Expanded Edition", incorporating some of the new features but staying within Gemini. A third prong to the WC...sharp object, if you will.:-) That's not my decision though; I can't code, do art, or do much useful in terms of development.

Both sides should cease the sniping. There's no reason that you can't be civil when you disagree. Sometimes, just agree to disagree and move on. The 'fanboy' snipes (which I mention just because they stick in my mind, not because they're at all egregious) are a useful example of what we should avoid.

Both sides should find things they can work together on. Whether this be modifications to the VegaStrike engine to better fit the WC Universe, developing art (something I would feel ashamed of everyone if there wasn't collaboration on), or developing new music and sounds (an appreciative nod of the head to Pas-2 for his work is certainly in order), even if the last just means taking what was composed in MIDI and such and doing it in the higher-quality formats we have today (which would certainly seem to be a good idea).

Then, do that. Ensure that where commonality is a good idea, there is commonality. In Art and Graphics stuff, for example, set up a common depository/workshop. Modeling would be especially improved with a determined collaborative effort, if just to make moving between the forks easier on the player (no wondering what we're looking at!:-)). The same in sound stuff. In coding, try to ensure that everybody works off of a common WC VegaStrike code. This especially applies to things like the properties of space, in my opinion. (Asteroids are an example.)

Now, will this require compromise? Yes. Retros may have to accept that, even if it's not exactly faithful to the original, changes may need to be made (such as to allow non-English keyboards to not have issues), or may simply be desirable (the current UI with the ability to directly choose comm choices without hitting C may not be as in the original, but seems a cleaner interface choice, for example).

Similarly, expansionists may need to restrain themselves. Yes, you COULD have something that mixes Wing Commander and Star Trek, or WC and Star Wars, or whatever. But, I would avoid that. You COULD, potentially, add new races beyond what we know of from canon. I would, similarly, avoid that. (Focus is your friend...)

Also, as a gesture of goodwill, could I ask the admin to reconsider some of the bans applied, and to not (seemingly) be so hasty in the future? That seems to poison things immensely, which is never a good thing.

And, finally. I'd like to remind everybody that: A. These are games we speak of. There's no reason to get oneself worked up about them, particularly to get angry about them. B. At the end of the day, we're all the same stripe of geek, and geeks need to stick together.:-)

(Now, if nobody minds, I'm going to post this to both sections of the Crius forums, and to the vegastrike WCU forum, in the hopes of wide distribution.)

Could we...try to get along?
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Post by mkruer »

http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=17197
“Think of WCU as more of a blanket project, in it, it covers the branch of the Privateer remake. So most if not all the stuff from Privateer remake can and is being rolled into the WCU. WCWI is also like this.â€
I know you believe you understand what you think I said.
But I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Wing Commander Universe Forum | Wiki
Wing Commander: The Wasteland Incident
kilolima
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Post by kilolima »

indicative of Retro activity at CIC, this thread has already been closed down there.

but, I get the feeling, that the main VS/priv-remake developers are ignoring this little "canon" war, and it's the fans that are trading the majority of shots.

It also seems that the Retro numbers increased astronomically soon after the 1.0 release... Was it the rest of CIC taking notice? Please can they go back to playing WC Standoff or something.
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Post by JKeefe »

kilolima wrote:It also seems that the Retro numbers increased astronomically soon after the 1.0 release.
I agree. Maybe if these people had said something before release the fights wouldn't have started.

It's especially interesting that two of the most vocal "retros" are John Cordell and BradMick; both had plenty of opportunity long before the release of 1.0 to be as adamant as they are being now.
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Post by Lone Wolf »

I guess I would be classified as "Expansionist," since as soon as PrivR was finished I dropped it and went full steam into WCU.
That said, it seems to me that their has really been a whole lot of fuss about nothing, due to a simple misunderstanding, namely this: Many (I didn't say all) of the "Retros" seems to think that WCU is simply an expanded version of Privateer. If this was true, they would have some grounds for demanding 100% accuracy to the original. But WCU is not a version of Privateer at all! It is a totally seperate project. It just happens that we're working of the Privateer mod for the VegaStrke engine, at least for the present. Our goal is not to make a "New, Improved and Expanded" Privateer. No, our end goals are far different. We're aiming for a totally seperate end result. By the time we're through, there may not be hardly a trace of Privateer left. On the other hand, some things (like the plotlines) may be retained if the developers feel they will enhance WCU. That's not my decision to make, and I have no idea what the decision will be. My point is this, the "Retros" have absolutely no grounds to try to make the WCU team stay exactly like any of the WC games. We are an independent project. Not a "Remake" or "Enhanced" version of any existing WC game, though we may include features from several of them. Leave the "historical-accuracy" question to the project leaders. If they want our opinions, they'll ask for them.
Now that I'm finished, it's off the "soap-box" and back to work!
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Long live the Confederation!
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Post by spiritplumber »

For me right now it's mostly using what's already there to prepare the grounds for people to create extra plots that span the whole universe, that's my goal anyway.

And ya, back to work for me too :) I got the CVS going (THANKS hellcatv for the lesson!!!) so stuff can get done from there from now on.
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Post by Lone Wolf »

It would be awesome to have at least one plot in each sector, and two or three (or more) in famous sectors. And not just carbon copy plots, with the exact same story, just different names, but really unique plots, each one with it's own little quirks...
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."-Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn
Long live the Confederation!
Guest

Post by Guest »

kilolima wrote:indicative of Retro activity at CIC, this thread has already been closed down there.
No, it wasn't. This is exactly the kind of weird spin that confuses everyone at the CIC - this thread was posted to multiple forums at the CIC and so was closed in all but one of them. It's still active in the Privateer Remake forum.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Sorry, guest above, the thread is closed there, too.
The retros closed it soon after the talk turned to putting very needed turrets on the Drayman.
Guest

Post by Guest »

It's especially interesting that two of the most vocal "retros" are John Cordell and BradMick; both had plenty of opportunity long before the release of 1.0 to be as adamant as they are being now.
No kidding. Regular Mordicai Joneses, they are. Maybe it's me, but it seems Loaf has been a loud Retro preacher lately, too.

It don't make much sense to me. If they're so stubborn about Priv Remake being an exact clone of the old Priv, then wouldn't it be easier to take the origional Priv and reverse engineer versions that run on modern 'puters?
PR 1.0 obviously doesn't emulate the origional all too closely anyway. The VS engine introduces it's own weird things into the mix, up to the point that enemy pilots fly like they're insane, plot missions don't go as planned and are often more difficult than they should be, yes, the Drayman *needs* turrets, and what's this thing with friendly Kilrathi?

But don't point this out to the Retros there, oh no, they won't have it. They'll close your threads on the matter and ban you with 'rightous judgement'!

Friggin' cultist nuts...
Guest

Post by Guest »

The "Retros" thing is stupid - I'm pretty sure the initial poster meant it as an amusing reference rather than some sort of derogitory remark.

John Cordell closed the thread -- he's *your* moderator, and has no relation to the CIC staff. I've reopened it... and you're welcome to post it to the *regular* CZ without fear of it being closed.
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Post by Lone Wolf »

The "Retros" thing is stupid - I'm pretty sure the initial poster meant it as an amusing reference rather than some sort of derogitory remark.
It is not a derogitory remark. It's a convient term for distinguishing between those who want to make the Remake 100% accurate to the original and those who want a little more creative freedom. Say "Purists" instead of "Retros" if you like.
John Cordell closed the thread -- he's *your* moderator, and has no relation to the CIC staff. I've reopened it... and you're welcome to post it to the *regular* CZ without fear of it being closed.
My answer:
It's especially interesting that two of the most vocal "retros" are John Cordell and BradMick; both had plenty of opportunity long before the release of 1.0 to be as adamant as they are being now.
Whether he's "our" moderator or not is irrelevant, if he has Purist views and he closed the thread, it's Purist activity just as kilolima wrote:
indicative of Retro activity at CIC, this thread has already been closed down there.
Whether or not the Remake has to be 100% same-as-original is entirely up the developers. Several Purists have claimed, "You can't change anything and still call it a Remake." "Remake" is defined as: "to make anew or in a different form"-Webster's Online Dictionary. Notice the clause, "in a different form." If the development team wants to change something, they have complete freedom to do it. after all, they're the ones doing all the work. Leave it up to them.
And as far as WCU is concerned, I quote myself:
WCU is not a version of Privateer at all. We are an independent project. We're aiming for a totally seperate end result.
So don't come over here and whine and tell us we're not being accurate. WCU is a first--there is no preceding game to be accurate too! There shouldn't be any "Purist/Retros" or "Expansionist" factions on this forum. The question of accuracy to an earlier game doesn't even exist.
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Post by spiritplumber »

Can I start a Steltek faction on the forum then?

*kills all the trolls with the green gun*

ahem :) anyway...

WCU is a blend of WC games. Eventually EVERY ship in EVERY wc game may very well end up in it -- right now I hope there is a balanced mix. The idea is to follow the adventures of Random Privateer Dude (I'd like it to have the possibility to also be Random Privateer Dudette, honestly) in the WC1-WC3orWCP timeline. So it has to look like wing commander obviously. But other than that there is no fidelity requirement to any one game.
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Post by Lone Wolf »

I couldn't have said it better! :D
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Post by Penta »

Guest wrote:The "Retros" thing is stupid - I'm pretty sure the initial poster meant it as an amusing reference rather than some sort of derogitory remark.

John Cordell closed the thread -- he's *your* moderator, and has no relation to the CIC staff. I've reopened it... and you're welcome to post it to the *regular* CZ without fear of it being closed.
Since I wrote it (and have been gratified by the discussion, at least, that it's caused both here and on Crius)...

Retro was not meant to be derogatory. It was convenient shorthand, nothing more.
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Post by spiritplumber »

Well, I can think of one kitty who would answer a question such as "How do I mod this" or "How do I change that" with "TRAITOR TO CANON, FEEL OUR WRATH!"

I think Retro is cute, now we gotta find another quasi-derogatory name for ourselves :p
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Post by hellcatv »

How about AWACS: armed workers against canon slavery ;-)
(as opposed to corporate)
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Post by spiritplumber »

Hahaha, I'm all for that. Now let's see the humorless people bludgeon this to death on the other forum :twisted:
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