New Hornet model

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:11 pm

Allright, done. As you can see from the before and after shots, I haven't changed anything about the wing; except rounding the tip. The cleanup is just alignment of edges and smoothing of the mesh. Better to do this before even looking at the flatness of quads...

BEFORE:

AFTER:

The file's here:
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/WCUships ... -mk8.blend

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:24 pm

Very nice indeed.

What do you think about the current hull?
Could you take a look at the area behind the cockpit, where I tried to let it merge with the hull? I'm a bit uncertain about that part.

Any ideas on the back?
Close it with a shield or keep it open and let the generators glow and illuminate the inside?

I am still on a break. Next time when I change something I will post here before doing so, that way we shouldn't get out of sync again.

Honestly, apart from landing gear and rockets I wouldn't know what to do next. No idea what I should do to greeble it.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:23 pm

Well, greebling is more involved than it sounds. The problem is precisely that: what to add. Myself, the only methodology I find works is to think of what a ship needs. For example, there must be some way to put fuel into the ship. Panels that open like doors, for maintenance, presumably need hinges, an knob... Weapon mounts might have their wiring internally, but who knows, maybe a tiny tube coming out of a little box nearby...
The blueprint has labels for a lot of the internals. I would think some of those internals might have a connection to the outside. Shield generator, for instance. Those round sensors on top of the front wings...

I'm trying to put together some gear stuff you can use as a starting point, or for inspiration. First attempt was a total failure; had to trash it outright. Now I'm trying to follow the blueprint exactly; even if it doesn't make any sense, and maybe I'll try to put some sense into it afterwards.

In any case, I have no idea which way these contraptions fold, but, whichever way they go, presumably they end up inside the fuselage, and there will need to be a door there.

Now, I'm not saying some of these things can't be done in the bumpmap, instead; but you're better off putting them in as geometry at first, because otherwise you can't tell how it looks, all together.

The bumpmap will be a great place to put low relief greebles; but they're made all the more believable with just a bit of geometry. Like if you make something in the bumpmap that looks like a panel with two recessed circles and raised hubs in the center, just a tiny stick in geometry coming out of the centers, or a very thin wire joining one center to the other, would lend those bumpmapped shapes a lot of credibility.

I'll take a look behind the cockpit; I'll be back...

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:26 pm

Okay, I took a look and it looks very good, except one quad is twisted, and two others slightly twisted. Here they are:

Looking at the wire mesh from the side, there's also a vertical offset where the back of the cockpit joins the hull, which is causing some of the lines not be parallel...

I felt this needed fixing first, so I adjusted than joint down:

Now, if we look at the twisted quad from such an angle as causes the longer lines to cross, we see the problem more clearly:

Roughly, these are the vertices I moved to solve the problem. Actually, to move the vertex below and to the right towards the center of the ship, I moved the entire line, going all the way to the back, so as not to disturb parallelism between edges.

After a few adjustments back and forth, the two lines bordering that quad are now parallel:

And the result:

I think I'd rather let you do it than upload the file, because, by mistake, I was editing an older version of the file, so I'm worried you might overwrite other updates you may have done since then.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:31 pm

Sorry, I just looked at the correct file, and the cockpit geometry there was newer. The problem is very similar, tho:

Vertex 2 (highlighted) is causing problems in two quads. It's a minute offset, but very visible due to the size of the quads it affects.
One solution would be to move that vertex down, towards the floor. The problem is that it would have to move down together with vertex 1; otherwise the two triangles bordering with 1 and 2 would face inwards. But if you move vertex 2 down, it would skew the quads in the bevel.
Another solution would be to move vertex 3 up, and vetex 4 with it, to maintain the back window of the cockpit flat.
In any case, I would move vertex 2 inwards, towards the center of the ship, to make the edge to the right of it, parallel to the edge to the right of 3.
Well, in the end, I found the best solution was to move the end of the window back...

But then I noticed another problem...

I'm not really working on the mesh, so go ahead and work on it if you want; I'm just trying to do the landing gear, which you can just import, if you like it. For the engines' space, I'd go as deep as the engines go; no more. That's one place that should be easy to greeble up; just sticks and pipes and wires and little boxes, filling space there. Specially radial sticks connecting the engines and the hull; but a couple of curved pipes and wires would look really good.

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:29 pm

This low-poly-modelling is a form of art on its own.

At the moment I am busy with "real" live.
In a couple of weeks I will know for sure if my military career is down the drain or not.
Could very well be that I've ruined my body and wasted 6 years of my live with nothing to show for it in the end.
Ah, the price you pay for trying to live an honest live.

It will also guarantee some more sleepless nights so I will probably be back here from time to time.

Will check out your recommendations. The only thing I did on the cockpit was to run the bevel-to-center-script, it seems it's not really an instant solution.

Is it safe for me to fiddle with the hull?

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:47 pm

DualJoe wrote:This low-poly-modelling is a form of art on its own.

Sure, but there's not much of a need for low-poly-ness.

Is it safe for me to fiddle with the hull?

Yes, go ahead; I'm just struggling with the gear.

I hope your problems, whatever they are, get resolved. We're desperately in need, here, for people with your modelling skills; and I was really hoping you'd soon be doing the other WC1 ships. It's sad to hear you have to go; but whatever modelling you can do in the future will be highly appreciated, as is your work on the Hornet right now. Anyways, if you don't have time to do the cockpit interior, I'll try to complete it with quality that honors the rest of the ship, and texture it. Hopefully the ship will be in-game next time you're back.

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:12 am

Don't worry I am not vanishing from the earth, nor this forum for that matter.
It just means I probably won't be able to spend as much time on modelling as in the past week and that I'm a little on edge.

I'm finding this a good way to get my mind of things.

I will need to learn how to texture sometime, but since I've never done anything like it, the results are bound to be poor.

I could have a go at some of the other ships so I can come back to this with a fresh look.

Do we need some of the simple stuff like rockets and other pieces of equipment?

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:40 am

Absolutely. Everything we got is low poly crap. A good missile would be a great thing to have. A Maverick-looking one like in the Hornet's blueprint would be a great asset; but we also need a replacement for tube-launched ones. I'm not even sure we have a torpedo. I don't think missiles and rockets are visually distinquishable.
Turrets are in need of redoing, too; you can download the current shippack, but it's like 90 megs and there are no turrets worth looking at longer than a millisecond.
Turrets and missiles need to be low poly, due to their numbers in a scene. But right now they are so low-poly it's preposterous (square stick for a gun). I remember playing Homeworld, like, what?, 10 years ago?, and the turrets on those ships, if you zoomed in, had fairly round gun-barrels. Videocards are probably 20 times more capable now than they were when Homeoworld came out...
We need 3D base interiors, capship interiors, cockpits, ejection seats, tables and chairs, 3D computers for missions and trading, a 3D PDA...
You said you did human heads before?
We need all the characters from Privateer and WC...

Before texturing anything you need to do a UV map unwrap, which is a ton of work to do well, so, one might as well be ultra-happy with the geometry before going down that one-way boulevard.

Privateer Ferrius · Post by **Privateer Ferrius** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:17 am

*waves arms maniacally*
What am I, chopped liver?

I can hardly model for shit, but I'd like to think I can texture things

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:26 am

Hey; be my guest.

There's tons of stuff needing retexturing. Just pick anything at all, just about...
Hmmm... The problem is a strategic one, though. Just about everything needs remodelling too. Well, not the Privateer models. I think the only one we're redoing is the Demon. Of all the rest, the only one properly textured I believe is the Tarsus. So pick any Privateer ships other than the Tarsus and go to town with it. Last I checked, the Drayman had a shadow on one side, baked right into the goddam texture

The textures for orbiting bases are pretty decent; but the textures for planets suck mightily.
And there's always the Demon ...

I also have the LRC I modelled for the Elite Strike mod; and I've even unwrapped it, if you want to take a crack at it.

Privateer Ferrius · Post by **Privateer Ferrius** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:46 am

Actually that was more directed towards the Hornet.

The Demon's starting to get to be too large a texture for my computer to manage. I actually have to size down the source

A part of me wants to revist the horribly bland starscape from Troy. I dunno if you should do 3d characters though. Not even VS had that ... evn if VS' character art sucked

My own to do list looks like thus, in no particular order:

* Demon texture. Just going to finish the plates and such for now, until there actually is SUPPORT for multiple paint jobs.
* Tingers Claw texture for the Bengel. Needs model first, obviously)
* Hornet texture. The WC1 fan in me demands this. I couldn't stand to see the Hornet get a hack job like the previous WCU textures

* Better starmaps. The artist and Grag Martin fan in me cant help but cringe at the unrealistic starfields.
* Much better planets. Greg Martin had an awesome tutorial on this - why is it that no one that seems to follow it?

* Modelling. That is, learning to model.
* Finish the WC1 soundtrack. Need to redo/fix the Clash since FLS didn't save the source properly.
* Cockpit art - I want to make high-quality 2D cockpits based on the originals, for myself, if noone esle.
* High res 'base' art - if we can't get it in 3d, I could at least make higher resolution versions.
* High res character art - same as above.
* WC1 intro and other sequences - been working on capturing this to add to WCU.
* Proper Kilrathi textures. The privateer models fly abuse the kilrathi ships horribly with non-kilrathi paintjobs. I intend to fix that.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:23 am

Sounds like a plan

Privateer Ferrius wrote:Actually that was more directed towards the Hornet.

Okay, the Hornet not only needs to be finished mesh-wise, but also UV-unwrapped, before it can be textured. The UV-unwrap is quite a job to do properly. The cockpit interior and landing gear can be textured separately, though; and Dual is pretty much done; just the back and a few greebles, and it's ready to unwrap.

The Demon's starting to get to be too large a texture for my computer to manage. I actually have to size down the source

2k by 2k is good enough a rez to work from.

A part of me wants to revist the horribly bland starscape from Troy. I dunno if you should do 3d characters though. Not even VS had that ... evn if VS' character art sucked

And suck it does.

* Demon texture. Just going to finish the plates and such for now, until there actually is SUPPORT for multiple paint jobs.

Exactly. Paint job is the last thing; metal comes first; and support for multiple paint jobs is possibly a long way away. When you think of it, even with 128 or 256 megs of video ram, it's all too easy to fill it up. My current idea would be to make paint jobs ultra low rez, like 256x256, and fit like 16 of them in one texture; and just tell the shader which one you want shown in each particular ship.

* Much better planets. Greg Martin had an awesome tutorial on this - why is it that no one that seems to follow it?

Hey, no kidding; we *desperately* need better planets.

* Modelling. That is, learning to model.

I'll help you out every way I can.

Anyways, let's not hijack this Hornet thread...

Privateer Ferrius · Post by **Privateer Ferrius** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:44 am

BTW, linkage: http://gallery.artofgregmartin.com/

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:23 am

I think we'd better move... she's coming for a landing...

Should I put the stupid horseshoes they put on it in the blueprint?, or wheels?

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:15 am

Well it's a VTOL so wheels are not strictly needed, but it would be very impractical without wheels IMO.
I wouldn't bet on wheels becoming outdated any time soon. Unless someone invents the superlube.
However if the have "inertia-dampeners" and artificial gravity than they should also be able to let this thing to float off the ground.

The way I see the blueprints is that the gears have the lids of the holes they come out of attached to them. So the round plate on the knee should probably be flat.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:47 pm

I don't believe in "inertial dampening". Wheels it is, then. Besides, the HellcatV is VTOL too, and yet has wheels...

Erm... Dual, you were talking about taking a break and tackling something else, then coming back. Just a thought: The model, without the inside of the cockpit, without landing gear, and without an opening hatch, is all we need to start to unwrap for the texturing; since the landing gear and cockpit interior will be in separate files. And it's pretty almost finished: Basically, just the inside of the back --the engines' hollow space--; and a few tiny greebles, and I can start to unwrap; --or you, if you want to do it.

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:48 pm

Well I'm back a lot sooner than I expected so I'll see what I can do to finish this model.

The mk8 was the last version right? Hopefully I'll get the the cockpit done pretty quick and then do those greebles.

Before I do the greeble I will apply the mirror. The last details should be a little asymmetrical.

Should there be steering thrusters or don't they exist in the WCU.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:28 pm

Actually, could you post the file prior to de-mirroring? There's something I'd like to try to do, which is very, very hard to do, but I'd like to try anyhow: Welding the wings to the fuselage. I tried it once before, and it was a total flop; but I have a new theory for how to do it. Essentially, my theory boils down to multiplying vertex density on the wing towards the fuselage, introduce two new parallel cuts near the edge, flare the edge vertexes, then move each group of 3 vertexes until it just begins to penetrate the fuselage; then subdivide the fuselage along vertical planes that match the vertices on the wings, cut a hole where the wing meets it, and finally weld them together. After setting smooth shading to the result, there'd probably be all kinds of shading artifacts on the hull, radiating from the seam, but they should be fixable. The final result should be a smoth, thin bevel between the two.

Finished with the rear gear...

EDIT:
MK8 was the file with the smoothed main wings.
*My* MK5 was the file with the smoothed front wings.

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:16 pm

I won't touch the wings so there will be no problems there.
There's currently a Thai-boxing tournament on the tele which means progress will be slow.

As soon as I've fixed the rear of the cockpit I'll post the blend.

Those gear are looking very impressive by the way. I'm glad you decided to do them.

DualJoe · Post by **DualJoe** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:51 pm

Damn was that cockpit hard, I think I solved it though.
Here's the blend with the updated hull, ready to be merged.
http://www.deeplayer.com/DualJoe/Hornet ... -mk9.blend

How's this for a reference of an engine?
http://www.mobiledyne.com/pub/j58_1498x769.jpg

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:24 pm

Not quite clean; behind the cockpit you can see artifacts on the hull, in the render; but no sweat; I'll finish ironing those before trying to weld the wings on. I won't change the geometry, of either the hull or the wings; only microscopic adjustments and the welding; so you can go ahead and work on the engines or greebling. Just leave all greebles as a separate object in a separate layer. You'd want to do that anyways.

Yeah, I was doing some looking around for engine references a while ago, and this is what I came up with:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... php?t=6319

This cargo ship I was making for my own mod, my lovely Tadpole ...
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 9138#59138
...I followed the VASIMR schematic, from the previous link, for the engine.

Gear done...

...almost; needs a few hoses; then I'l upload it.

Privateer Ferrius · Post by **Privateer Ferrius** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:39 pm

Looks good thusfar, Chuck

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:00 pm

It looks intricate, I'd say; but it tries to match the blueprint as closely as possible, which goes against the interests of realism, or the shape making any sort of sense... Not the way I like to work, but most WC fans want canon fidelity more than they want any kind of realism, so heck...

Dual, here's the file with the gear:
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/WCUships ... mk-9.blend
Note the *minus* 9; I decided for negativity, to avoid clashes. Watch out; it is NOT based on your (positive) mk9.
So, I'm turning the gear over to you, cause it's your ship, and you might have your own ideas about it, or might want to add some detail, whatever.
I'll try and see if I can weld the wings to the hull, now; don't expect it to happen quickly, tho...

Privateer Ferrius · Post by **Privateer Ferrius** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:05 pm

Hah. Don't expect much realism from WC