FTL Communications

The most appropriate place for Questions, Queries, and Quandaries regarding the nature of the Vega Strike universe and its past, present, or future history. Home to the occasional unfortunate RetCon.
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GAlex
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FTL Communications

Post by GAlex »

<moderator note>Split & moved out to avoid threadjack - by request</moderator note>

how does comms travel in VS? in other terms, what is the tecnology behind?

it seems comms (and of course transponders) are instantaneous. how can it be? if i'm near jupiter, how can I be noticed by another ship orbitting mars or by NYStarPort?

let's say my transponder emits a signal that travels in any form of electromagnetic-waves, if jupiter is in opposition to mars (i.e. is in the same quadrant relative to sun), there will be say 8-10 light-mins delay, while if jupiter is in conjunction (i.e. in the opposite quadrant relative to sun) there will be say 40-50 light-mins delay. again if I fly a portion of space quite near the sun, comms are jammed by its magnetosphere and plasma-made crown.

in terms of playability, implementing delays will result in no-comms at all and expose the engine to some paradox (flying at SPEC I can arrive somewhere before my transponder signal).

or do we suppose comms fly with SPEC? :shock:
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I think tachions are standard for that; although I saw once a paper with a proof that tachions, if they existed, would NOT help us carry *info* FTL.
Anyhow, this is another example of where I'd rather see nothing said about it, than see a wrong thing said about it.

And on the topic of transponders, I can't see what Ryder's problem with them is. They are already standard in navigation and aviation, super-cheap, convenient, useful, and useful to us to explain how things work...

In any case, we're talking about engine capabilities, not about Vegastrike the game; and it would make every bit of sense to figure out how things work in practse, with and without them, and make sure the engine supports mods that decide to go either way, or anywhere between.
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Post by klauss »

I'm not sure about intra-system comms, I think it's plain radio waves (and hence - slow), but inter-system communications are sent through jumppoints by automated pods launched from relay stations (that's what they're for).

JackS had given a detailed explanation about this... well... as detailed as it can be, given that there's not much to say, and we had even figured out a networking system, like TCP/IP, over that scheme (designed to account for the increased delays).

It seems to have disappeared, though... I can't find it.
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Post by Halleck »

What about quantum-linked atoms? Aren't there atoms that, when something happens to one atom, the same thing happens to the other atom no matter where it is?

You could easily build registers out of these atoms... although each ship would have to have its own quantum transmission box at some kind of central communications center.
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Post by Bodo »

:shock:

I know next to nothing about quantum-technology, but this somehow sounds like curved space-gibberish to me... :?
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Post by Halleck »

This has nothing to do with curved space, this has to do with the quantum entanglement of atoms.

Although I noticed that wikipedia states "However, at this time classical information cannot be transmitted through entanglement faster than the speed of light." because we currently need a to rely on a classical information channel in order to convery information through "quantum teleportation".

So, at least for now, standard radio communications would be just as fast (but that's no reason we couldn't base a fictional technology off of it, IMO. Reliance on classical information channels could be reduced or eliminated once we develop quantum computers.)
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Post by Bodo »

This has nothing to do with curved space, this has to do with the quantum entanglement of atoms.
**tries to disentangle braincells**

oh man, what was God thinking when he created stuff like that?? :shock:
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Post by Halleck »

Thinking ahead, perhaps? :D
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

You mean by using quantum entanglements?

I read some funny paper, went way over my head, but basically you need to transmit at least some information at c by other means in order to use entanglements to send info.

EDIT:
Man! Four posts ahead of me by the time I send... :-/
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Post by Halleck »

Heh, and probably for the first time. :D

I think that there are unexplored channels for developing pure "quantum transceiver" that will open up once advances are made in the frontier of quantum computing.

After all, once you can effectively use the quantum state/spin of an atom as a "qubit" to store information, what would prevent you from using the same read-write technology on a special register of entangled atoms?

And such a transceiver would fit pretty well into VS canon... in fact, just stop off at your local trading post to pick up a bulk shipment of quantum computers. :wink:
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Post by JonathanD »

Well, not anywhere, you just need routes... like modern tcp/ip :P
so each ship has to have a corresponding reciever at SOME location, which links to other locations, etc. I pressume you'd have to pay for your link, much like a modern tcp/ip network where you pay for network access. And while your link to the reciever would be real time, your link to other parts of hte network would be controlled by your recievers link to the network.

Soooo you have an explanation for galactic communication, latency, and a host of other things. You can also have an ongoing operational cost (if such things ever get implemented). Of course, such communication networks can be disrupted, by knocking out or disrupting the relay stations.

And of course, local communication networks.

Now finally, I can't remember what thread this is in... but my thoughts on faction attitudes and radars well, one thing that would add LOADS of strategy and realism is some more variation in how things look and when they appear. Ship sizes, energy output, and the like should have some effect on when ships are detected. A sensor rig might detect a large capship at several times the distance of a fighter, as well as maybe a myriad of other variables. Things like power consumption, weapons fire and shield impacts should all increase sensor visability to other ships, and increase another ships ability to identify you. Another thing, such identities should not always be accurate... and timely. A ship might need ot close to a certain distance to id another, or make contact with that ship beforehand ot identify it (challenge them, as it were.) All of this is very real, in current times. Would be cool, in game ;) but thats just my opinion.
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Post by dandandaman »

chuck_starchaser wrote:but basically you need to transmit at least some information at c by other means in order to use entanglements to send info.
Yes .. at least, for now. That was how it was done in an experiment recently (I guess the paper comes from that), and that was quantum teleportation. Entanglement needent rely on teleportation (in fact, my fading memory of quantum mech tells me that they are aren't the same thing at all) but as far as I'm aware we don't have the tech just yet to generate entangled particles and store them seperately .. hence that particular crucial aspect hasn't been tested. :-)

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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Yeah, if I remember it right, there was some loss of determinism in the data that introduced some limitations in the transmission that worked out to it being equivalent to sending the info at c, but then someone came up with a way of using quantum computing to implement an error detection and correction mechanism that should get around the problem, and they were working on it. Something like that.
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Post by Halleck »

Also, there is a theoretical way to decrease network latency by the use of quantum repeaters.

I think it would make loads of sense to create a hypothetical internet based on quantum computers and quantum entanglement as a means of information transfer. It would be pretty stone-age to have to release a "relay pod" that would physically carry messages through the jump gate, like a medieval messenger.
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Post by Reuse »

This thread is going off topic, maybe we should start a "FTL communication" thread.

So much for the legal issues ;)

One important aspect of communication is how it would effect gameplay. If ships were not able to transmit FTL signals, then you could only communicate with objects that are very close (some light seconds away). Because anything else would be very annoying, and nobody would wait a couple of minutes to receive an answer.

This only holds if you have two way communication like telephony. Something like e-mails would still be usable.

Another aspect is that if you attack an vessel in the middle of nowhere it would take long for help to arive. This interresting for pirates and merchants. If you want to be safe, stay in the proximity of trade lanes etc, where a lot of traffic passes through.

As with travelling we have 3 different kinds of distances we should think of:
- local (~light seconds): no need for FTL communication.
- interplanetary (~light minutes): need FTL only if you want responsive 2-way communication.
- interstellar (~ light years): FTL is neccesary.

Now one could say FTL communication is provided by a net of FTL-hubs. That would raise several questions:
- Who builds and installs these hubs?
- Are hubs of different factions compatible?
- Are you charged for hub usage (costs)?
- Is anybody allowed to use a hub?
- How does a hub respond to distress signals?
- Is it possible to construct movable hubs (for installation in capital ships)?

Another aspect is, that hubs are no braodcast medium. You can only contact known ships.

Also if FTL communication is not possible, one could ask, "Is FTL sensoring possible?". This would mean for long range scans, that you do not senser a ships actual status and position, but the position it had som seconds or minutes ago. As a consequence on long range encounters over several light seconds it would be very hard to hit the target, which could be an explanation why there are so much dogfights in space.
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Post by Halleck »

I can't think of a means for FTL radar... although there's the offchance that you could get the sensor readings from a relay or observation station that's patched in to the quantum internet. Still, there would be some latency.

So yes, that would be a problem. It would also allow for star-trek like maneuvers such as warping/speccing in close so that your ship appears twice for a second or two, allowing you to confuse your opponent and strike.
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Post by GAlex »

maybe it's too star-trekish, but i sci-fi it's common sense to have more than 4 dimensions.

int the socalled "m-theory", which is the most advanced branch of string-theory, there must be at least 6 more dimensions and up to 21.

these additional dimensions are self-wrapped, but maybe one could be large enought to be discovered by the new experiments that are growin' up at CERN. the "standard model" is far to be complete, and new bosons and leptons could be discovered in the future. we can imagine that future developments in that directions would allow mankind to be capable to use these other dimensions in which c should have no-sense. we can also imagine that we cannot send nothing larger than a particle in these dimensions, but for comms it's ok.

as for ship detection, radars are unacceptable. we must think we are in another element, and as we don't use radars on submarine, we cannot use radars in space. we could easily think that technology would allow us to have efficient mass detectors, which detects an object (from a ship to a planet) by calculating how it's mass deflect local space. obviously, mass-detectors cannot detect what type of object a mass point is, but here comes patterns and APQP (Array Parallel Quantum Processor) that could derive statistically or by knowledge-base rule methods the type of object (with some sort of error).
something similar to nowadays sonar systems on submarines, but in space and with 31th century tech.
and maybe only the largest military capships could fit-in an accurate and long-range mass-scanner, while small fighters only can fit less-accurate short-range ones.

mhmhmhm... I have the feeling I'm missing something...

EDIT: BTW what the hell is FTL for???
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

GAlex wrote:as we don't use radars on submarine, we cannot use radars in space

...


...


Okaaaay, completely bypassing that for now, I'd just like to point out that science-fiction discussions of n-dimensional space travel of any kind are incredibly hokey, and there's a strong stigma associated with it after decades of prominant and downright excessice usage by Science=Magic 'tards. Even if we had any amateur authorities on the subject here (and we don't) and could paint a reasonably accurate and believable interdimensional communication/travel model (which we can't), it'd still be better to find some other way to explain things, because as soon as the phrase "the 5th dimension" comes up, any players old enough to have lived through Star Trek are going to immediately projectile vomit all of their organs so hard that they'll punch straight through the walls of their house and kill their neighbors. And their blood will be on your hands.

I'm not sure that any kind of faster-than-light communication is needed, anyway. You only ever communicate with or detect objects that are a couple light-seconds away at most (although known celestial objects pop up on radar- well, that doesn't take magic faster-than-light signalling), and there's no reason to expect that the news or anything travels unusually fast either. The game universe is set up awful conveniently for subluminal comms, with everything being practically on top of everything else.

There's no reason why FTL would be necessary, either to explain game functions or for the universe to work- instantaneous communication across the galaxy is not a necessity, if our ancestors were willing to wait months for a message to reach their outlying provinces I'm pretty sure our distant descendants could stand to wait a few hours.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Haven't read all the posts, but I'd like to add something to what Ryder said:

Any mentions of "THE 4th dimension", or "THE 5th ..." and so on are totally meaningless. Dimensions are countable yet not enumerable. By that I mean: "Space" as we are used to, is defined as "3-dimensional" because you need 3 quantities to define the position of a point, in any arbitrary frame of reference. If you pick two frames of reference that are rotated 90 degrees relative to each other, x in one frame might become y in the other, and viceversa. So, even though we can say that our "space", as we perceive it, is 3-dimensional, we canNOT point at WHICH dimension is the first, which the second, which the third; and by extension, we cannot speak of THE 4th, THE 5th, etceteras.
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Post by loki1950 »

why not inoke :wink: String Theory and tie a big knot of crap to a Brane as well.

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Post by klauss »

IIRC, there was a company that claimed to have produced a commercially viable quantum cryptography implementation (which is what you're talking about, with the entanglement and stuff).

IIRC, it works by exchanging a stream of entangled photons. The stream is produced mid-way, sent both sides, and manipulated at one endpoint. The theory is that when you manipulate one, the other changes as well. Therefore, the one in the other endpoint receives a message created after the quantum-entangled photon was created and sent away, thus, achieving FTL communication (while not FTL travel).

It is used as a form of cryptography since it is impossible to intercept the message without destroying it... thus, making any attempted interdiction detectable (if not unsuccessful). Supposedly, utilizing this tampering-awareness, it is possible to devise a protocol which avoids completely the interception of messages (by using standard cryptography in appropriate ways).

In any case... I don't think there are entangled atoms... rather, entangled photons, but I might be mistaken. If entangled atoms were possible (maybe we could introduce them as a recent discovery in VS universe?), then a bunch of entangled atoms could be transported by automated pods from relay to relay, to serve as medium for FTL communication. That would indeed be interesting: FTL communication lanes would consist of a pipeline of automated pods filled with entangled memory devices which, when required, are used to transmit messages between the two endpoints.
This is obviously much more convenient than entangled photon streams... however, entangled photon streams could also be used with three stations in place: two relays, and a quantum-entangled photon stream source between them.
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Post by Halleck »

Indeed, entangled photons are the most common example of quantum entanglement, as they are relatively easy to produce (with lasers and certain crystal lattices if I recall correctly). However, there's no reason that I'm aware of as to why we cannot have quantum-entangled atoms.

I am really liking the "quantum internet" idea... for quantum relays, etc. connecting to a series of hubs. It could be run much like the internet is now (to my understanding); a backbone of hubs run by different service providers, but which all are based on common protocols and can communicate with each other.
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Post by Reuse »

@Ryder:
I think Faster-Than-Light Communication is essential, since it would take information several years to reach other solar systems.

Of course you do not need a a FTL-radio. One can imagine Communication Drones, packed with information, jumping between systems, interchanging data. This would also be a kind of FTL-Communication.

@klauss:
There is a drawback using entangled photons. They can only be created in pairs. Until now noone has found a way to entangle allready existing photons.

Another problem is that you can not manipulate them. You can only measure them to get their state. Since they are entangled, if you now the state of one qbit, you also no the state of the other. After measuring, all information of the qbit is destroyed. This means for every bit you want to transfer you have to generate a new qbit (photon).

So much for the physiscs ;). Of course there is no need for VS to through communication through entangled quantum objects over board, since in distant furture we should know a lot more about it.
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Post by forlarren »

Why I hate quantum entanglement.

The wild west was wild becuse the fastest a message could travel was no faster than the pony express.

The Dukes of Hazard made moonshining (smuggling) fun because they didn't need to outrun a radio just the local sherrif.

As communicatuon becomes more pervasive and instant, opertunity for adventure decreases. Large organisations ability to inforce there veiws on others with force is directly related to communitcation.

So I would vote for (expensive) FTL drones to carry important messages. And a private mail service, cargo ships with a good rep can take mail delevery missions.

If you asked me what tech will we have first FTL travel or FTL communication. Communication without a doubt. But its not a world I would like to game in.
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Post by Reuse »

@forlarren:

This would depend on several other aspects. just because your distress signal is picked up fast does not necessarely mean that help will come fast.

The main reason the wild west was wild was, besides that comm was slow, that there was no strong government in that region at that time. It took long for governmental forces to arrive, and sherrifs di not have enough power to effectively fight criminals.
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