Vegastrike History In-Game

The most appropriate place for Questions, Queries, and Quandaries regarding the nature of the Vega Strike universe and its past, present, or future history. Home to the occasional unfortunate RetCon.
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chuck_starchaser
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Vegastrike History In-Game

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I was just writing an email to klauss about factions and got inspired to post this here. Bear with me; I'll get to the point after discussing interface issues that are OT here, but a bit necessary to introduce.

[TECHNICALITIES]
I was saying to klauss, that maybe there shouldn't be numbers from -100 to +100 for the factions in the Info screen. In my mind, a computer wouldn't tell me exactly how much my enemies hate me to a +/-0.5% accuracy; it would just say "friendly" or "hostile". In fact, I'm not sure quantifying hostility makes sense in the first place. What that number IS is a means for the algorithm to model, or fake, human memory of past gestures and actions; and it is really of NO concern to the player.

Besides, the one piece of equipment that is really concerned with my relation to the other factions is the FF database + heuristics part of the radar sensor computer; so perhaps there shouldn't even be an "Info screen" at bases, but rather just a display mode on the radar, in one's ship, that shows the list of factions in the data base, and prints out their names in the color that it would assign their representative dots, if they appeared at sensing range. It would be up to the player a) to remember who are friends or foes while at a base, and b) to guess how much your enemies hate you, or your friends love you. Maybe the types of things they say to you in space should help you figure it out...

And players without an FF-flagging sensor type perhaps shouldn't venture far from home; and perhaps bartenders should advice so...
[/TECHNICALITIES]


(Now to the not-so-OT stuff):

Rather than new players having to read a document about the history of all VS factions, off line, before being able to tell what's going on in the game, perhaps that history would best be delivered In-Game, and available to the player gradually and opportune-ly.

* Part of it could be put into books one can buy, or read at libraries.
* Part of it could be written into magazine articles. Magazines could be made available for single issue purchase or subscription, at a newsstand.
* Part of it could come through the news screen, as passing comments attached to news items, like "such horrid massacre as reminds us of...".
* And part of it could be available at bars: Put an old man in a bar once in a while, and if you buy him a drink, he tells you a story. It could be a local story, most of the time; but sometimes stories of things that happened in far away places. It doesn't have to be just personal stories: The man could say "Do you know what truly happened in the battle of ... ?" or "Do you know the real reason why we were at war with... in the years ... ?"; to which the player could say "yes I've heard that one", or "no, please tell me".

But for this to work, I think we'd need to limit the player's early ability to travel long distances; as there might not be enough time to deliver a good chunk of history within just a handful of landings in a given faction's region.

[TECHNICALITIES]
One way would be to make the jump drive more expensive, really expensive; and limit its jump fuel to a single jump. More advanced models could have 2 or more jumps capability, but would cost a lot more and wouldn't fit just on just any ship. A 6-jump jump-drive could be made to only fit in a mule-sized ship; or perhaps an ultra-miniature multi-jump drive for fighters should be available but cost a fortune.
[/TECHNICALITIES]


This whole idea is about giving the player time and means to learn about the history and folklore of one faction and region of space at a time; --gradually and naturally. And having books, magazines and old men telling stories, are ways to implement such time and means in a manner that slows down the pace of the game while at bases, gives bases more reasons to be, and adds atmosphere and immersiveness, to boot.

Rather than factions being just names in a list, and their attitudes towards me just numbers next to those names, a profusion of reading material, faction-specific base art, and oral tradition; combined with a removal of the "Info" screen, would give the player the need and the means to know not only whether a given faction loves or hates you, but also why. Factions' histories and current predispositions should grow on you, rather than be too easily --but not so meaningfully-- available as a number next to a name, and a pdf file in the hard drive.

The difficult part would be, of course, rewriting bits of VS history to sound like old man tales, or like magazine articles that recount history as a way of putting the discussion of current affairs in a context, and modifying the news generator to add bits of history to some news items in a way that seems fitting and natural. Might be a fun project, though... and certainly worthy, IMO.
Last edited by chuck_starchaser on Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Spock »

Nice, but I dislike making Jump more expensive. What I think is that you should be a nuetral party to all factions, and depending on what you do in their territory or them would affect some sort of faction difference. Maybe you could even choose what race you want to be and learning the history from both different sides of the story.

Win.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Naturally, neither books nor spoken tales need to be 100% accurate. In fact, for each chapter of VS history, I'd have be at least 3 versions: Sympathetic, Antipathetic, and neutral. Sympathetic versions are found in publications and regions of the faction, or of factions friendly to that faction. Antipathetic versions would be found in the converse. The neutral, and often true version of the story would be available far from the regions of the factions concerned, and within regions of factions that are either friendly to both, unfriendly to both, or neutral to both factions involved in the story.
Or perhaps that should only be true of books. Having oral traditions be truer than books would encourage the player to get info this way, and reduce the amount of voiceover eventually needed.
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Post by Silverain »

Just a random thought about extending jump times, to remain in an area long enough to absorb information.

I don't think it would make that much of a difference really. If I'm interested in backstory/information/news/history, I'll spend some time in the area to read/learn anyway.

If I just want to make money etc, I'm probably not interested in history enough to pick up more than idle reading anyway.

EDIT:
I vaguely seem to remember a previous discussion about incorporating information in-game, so I'll probably be repeating that somewhat.

Anyway, chuck's idea would tie in well with, say, library locations on a base (such libraries being found only semi-rarely, like on large, populated planets or research stations (information specific)). You enter the library location, access a computer, and can call up/read whatever files are available to that computer.

This requires a few things:
1) new location to be spawned at appropriate bases - libraries;
2) library computer - in which available information files are displayed, can be selected, and then viewed (say, by a pop up page over the computer) wih a scroll bar down the side;
3) information files in our database for the computer to access - being the actual reading (say, txt files).

Provided we have the location and computer, information files can be added at any time (as when the MoI confirms something as official).

From what I've read, we can do locations, and I think the current computer interface can be reworked (say, selections down the left, writing down the right box). First version could be just having the access all across the board, with seconf version being location specific, third version being faction specific.

Thoughts anyone?
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Post by CoffeeBot »

The biggest issue I've ever had with games is that there's always a backstory, and massive world history that the player should inherently know. That is to say, the player-character grew up in this world, and didn't just "pop" into existance, which is basically what happens when you first play a game (or start over).

This is especially true in games like VS where the gameworld is so incredibly large. Even if the player-character is ignorant to most things, they still have some knowledge of their world.

But, without sitting down and reading volumes, a new player won't know half of the things their character would/should. There really needs to be some way to give the player a "rapid immersion" into the VS history. Then, if they're so inclined, they can visit the library, read the news, and talk to daffy old men in bars (which, I think is a great idea).

Unfortunately, I really don't know any way of accomplishing such a feat.

Edit (as I'm still writing, far below here...): It just occured to me that one of the best ways to ensure immersion (that I've found, anyway...may not work on everyone) is to talk about things as if everyone knows exactly what's going on. A prime example is Dune. Herbert begins talking about the Bene Gesserit and Sardaukar as if the reader knows exactly what they are, and little about them is revealed, except what we see unfolding in the story. You never hear Gurney stop Paul in the hallway making lame comments like, "Those Bene Gesserit from the planet Wallich IX! They're always running around, the witches they are, using their mystical power called the voice..." (exaggerated, yes. but authors and scriptwriters use crap like that all the time). Rather, little is explained, and everything is spoken of as if it's daily life, because it is.

If the Rlaan and Aera are daily life in the VS galaxy, talk about them as if they are. NPCs should make comments about well known battles and massacres. Present-day examples would be side remarks like, "It's World War Three!" and "Iraq is this generation's Vietnam." VS-equivalent examples might be "Cephid 17 is a modern-day Chysophan," and "If the Highborn keep on like this, we'll have another Scyvian Tragedy in short order!" Reading that, I'm sure you're saying "WTF is the Scyvian Tragedy?" I know I am. But, if a bartender just says it in conversation, and never makes another comment about it (and no lame conversation choice like "Scyvian Tragedy? What's that?") we're on the right track.

...Moving on to comments about chuck's other thoughts...

Numbers for faction relations -- agreed. Bad juju. However, I'm not sure just using friendly/neutral/hostile as descriptors is enough. If, however, there were better in-game signs to show more than a binary relationship (either they attack you or they don't), then the three descriptors are fine. As it is, the only difference between friendly and neutral is whether or not they'll help you in a fight, or say "hello" as you pass.

Jump Drives -- as long as there's a lot of things to keep you busy in-system, then I'm not against it. However, we do have a rediculously large galaxy to skip around in, and people get antsy. Why limit them? There's not enough reason to limit travel, and quite a few reasons to leave it as is (mainly, a few hundred people complaining ;))

That said, however, I don't think spending a little extra time in one system, or working as a crew-member on another ship ever hurt anyone. Perhaps raising the price or limiting the availability of the jump drive would be a good idea -- it more or less ensures that everyone is comfortable with the flight system before they venture out into more unknown regions.

Alternatively, there could be different styles of jumps that require different levels of drives. Distance-based would be the best distinction. A "class one" jump drive could cover shorter jumps (5 parsecs?), most of which comprise a given military district, or the like. Class two would allow jumps across greater distances (15-20pc?), and a Class three would allow any length of jump, as well as the use of unstable wormholes.

Just my $3. (this was a bit more than two cents)
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Indeed, limiting travel's not a good idea; I just wanted to slow it down at the beginning. Here's another possibility that's come up before: Say the player started without a ship and had to work as gunner on cargo ships to earn enough money to buy a first ship. These jobs could be made to be traditionally a round-trip contract, so by the time you got enough money to buy a ship you're back where you started.

Not only whould this slow down your leaving the first system, but it would also give plenty of opportunities for learning the deeper story. Say that, on board the ships you work on, you only have to run to your gun turret when there are bogeys on radar. Then, when all is clear crewmembers could play cards or socialize. While playing cards they could talk about various things. You could meet some talkative passengers at the bar. Check out the books and mags at the ship's mess. Sit next to the pilot and learn some piloting skills by watching or asking questions.

I really like the idea of avoiding history101 in conversations. Good point. Introductory stuff could be put in books, where it belongs.
Silverain wrote:If I just want to make money etc, I'm probably not interested in history enough to pick up more than idle reading anyway.
Unless by understanding each faction well you gain an intuitive sense of what to buy from them and what to sell to them. The hard way would be to keep a notebook full of prices. But if you know what the mechanists are good at maybe you'll just know to buy prosthetic limbs from them. And the more deeply you know the factions, the more detailed your knowledge of their technologies, strengths and weaknesses, and the easier, more intuitive and profitable your trading with them becomes.

If books and libraries are hard to implement, we could maybe have "kiosks" at bases, like those info computers at shopping malls, and put sub-mens under General Info, including local history and faction history, as well as like government-sponsored advertisement about their general industry and products; intended supposedly for curious visiting travelers and traders.
A personal "want to buy" ads section could help the player get a glimpse on what categories of products are locally in high demand, as well.

EDIT:
I think there are a lot of things that still need to be worked out about VS factions, their history and culture. Things that perhaps should NOT be told, in game or otherwise, but should be known to developers and artists. Say I take the Highborn, for example: Just a matter of brainstorming a bit... They are specialized to thrive in zero gravity? Perhaps then they should be much bigger than normal humans, like 300 lb equivalent (flabby 300 lb, sumor wrestler-like, more than Arnold-like); very intolerant of high accelerations, and even of gravity. This should affect their ship design style: Smaller engines (low accels), more power devoted to shields; as well as no wings or aerodynamic features, as they would not care to descend to planets with atmospheres (which need high gravity to keep). Tables and chairs at their bars should be huge. Their faces puffy and pale.

One thing about races artificially altered off the initial human stock is that the parts of the brain that recognize the shape of their species, particularly opposite gender recognition, would not have had enough evolutionary time to adapt. As a consequence, altered human races would find original human stock more sexually attractive than their own, a fact they'd be in permanent denial of. But their comments could reflect part of it; say they might say to you in space "Pure stock... All beauty; no brains...", or they'd stare when you walk into one of their bars. And this should probably make the Purists the biggest porno exporters (possibly even their main export), and all other human-derived factions into big Purist porno consumers. And if you're at a Purist base, perhaps a lot of the classified ads in the kiosk would be jobs in the porno industry (of course not player-available, unless someone wants to implement film industry sets and settings... :))
Another symptom of this un-spelled-out situation could be that ads, as in 'commercial ads' in non-Purist territories would feature Purist humans next to the products advertised, except in regions where governments were pressured into banning the practise... --in which regions you'd find the same ads but sloppy collage work that substitutes individuals of the local human derived race. ;-)
Notice, however, that in psychological terms, the internalization of taboo requires the aid of projection: Non-original-stock races would probably project their own repressed desires onto the Purists, and jump to the chance to confuse the Purists' market-demand-mandated porno industry with "sleaziness". They'd probably be keen to generalize that "all Purists think about is sex", and stuff like that. Such cultural ideosyncracies and subtleties could be thought about, and added to an "internal reference document" that artists and script writers could study before contributing material.
For another example, Mechanists and Andolians could easily develop a philosophical obsession about each other... The central question being: "Is Consciousness a mechanical process?" Mechanists would say it isn't, and be very pedantic about it: They'd replace any part of themselves with a superior mechanical contraption, but NEVER any part of the brain. And they'd be very proud of this. Andolians, on the other hand, would be divided amongs themselves along philosophical lines. Some would believe that Consciousness is not mechanical, but that it can be aided. Some would believe that Consciousness IS mechanical, and that the concept of "I" or "self" --as in 'witness' of thought, or 'separate' from thought-- is an illusion. Most don't care, or have no opinion, but often get caught in the cross-fire. We could even think of ways these issues could color their laws and politics...
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Post by jackS »

CoffeeBot wrote:The biggest issue I've ever had with games is that there's always a backstory, and massive world history that the player should inherently know. That is to say, the player-character grew up in this world, and didn't just "pop" into existance, which is basically what happens when you first play a game (or start over).

This is especially true in games like VS where the gameworld is so incredibly large. Even if the player-character is ignorant to most things, they still have some knowledge of their world.
There are the distinct tasks of representing the game world, and of explaining it, and they are best accomplished in different manners. There is indeed the grand divide between the knowledge presumed of the avatar and the player's actual knowledge. However, pulling the player through a series of contrived exposures in order to educate the player demeans the avatar and breaks immersion horribly. Far better to represent the game world as best one can, expose the player to what the avatar would conceivably be exposed to, and, to offset the inherent confusion this might bring about, have readily available information about most anything one could search for also presented in an immersive fashion - because such information is going to be readily available. Libraries, books, and magazines, are, except in analogy, anachronisms for the VS universe. In any civilized region, copious amounts of information are readily available (in Andolian space, information is, of course, available _everywhere_ by link ;-)) on demand, although the particular interface will vary from region to region.

If we make the atmosphere appropriately rich and appropriately varied, then even the least observant player will pick up something of their environs, and the interested player, by exploring the available databases will, piecewise as needed, or in grand gulps, come to understand the situation they have been thrust into. Offline documentation is also key here, in terms of what it offers those who read it, though experience dictates that many will not read it. Tying into a theme from another thread, any tutorial experience is going to be distinct from the main gameplay - its own scenario. A tutorial is, in some sense, the hands-on version of the manual - an educational device, more than a game-universe one, and should be designed as such, although steeped in the language and setting of the game-universe, where feasible.

As for those who act as though functionally illiterate - the responsibility of what we directly present to the player is only in what is occurring, not why. To be able to play, the player must have some basic understanding of what is being asked of them, at least in the most local sense. If the player does not assist us by bothering to absorb sufficient background knowledge (made readily available, but not thrust in the player's face) to understand the consequences or motivations for actions they have been asked to undertake or take it upon themselves to perform, or the dynamics supporting some given state of the universe, this is not our responsibility - this is a failure to appropriately role-play the PC, unless one is assuming that the PC has decided to isolate his/herself from society behind a wall of willful ignorance, and while we should ensure that the player is able to muddle on in oblivious fashion, it is not our responsibility to open the eyes of the willingly blind. Why is often the harder question than what, at least in terms of the breadth of familiarity required to answer it. Why must be an answerable question, answerable, indeed, entirely by resources available in-game, but it is not one that we need require the player to answer unless they have the desire to do so. I imagine that having some inkling of the answers to the why and how questions will make the game more fulfilling for those with any interest in such things, and that is sufficient motivation to propell them through the available background information, and to converse with enough otherwise unimportant NPCs to better grasp the universe they are living with. Those with no interest in doing so are not likely interested in the story or setting anyway, merely the mechanical actions possible to them, which will often not be deeply affected by their understanding of the universe.
CoffeeBot wrote: Edit (as I'm still writing, far below here...): It just occured to me that one of the best ways to ensure immersion (that I've found, anyway...may not work on everyone) is to talk about things as if everyone knows exactly what's going on. A prime example is Dune. Herbert begins talking about the Bene Gesserit and Sardaukar as if the reader knows exactly what they are, and little about them is revealed, except what we see unfolding in the story. You never hear Gurney stop Paul in the hallway making lame comments like, "Those Bene Gesserit from the planet Wallich IX! They're always running around, the witches they are, using their mystical power called the voice..." (exaggerated, yes. but authors and scriptwriters use crap like that all the time). Rather, little is explained, and everything is spoken of as if it's daily life, because it is.

If the Rlaan and Aera are daily life in the VS galaxy, talk about them as if they are. NPCs should make comments about well known battles and massacres. Present-day examples would be side remarks like, "It's World War Three!" and "Iraq is this generation's Vietnam." VS-equivalent examples might be "Cephid 17 is a modern-day Chysophan," and "If the Highborn keep on like this, we'll have another Scyvian Tragedy in short order!" Reading that, I'm sure you're saying "WTF is the Scyvian Tragedy?" I know I am. But, if a bartender just says it in conversation, and never makes another comment about it (and no lame conversation choice like "Scyvian Tragedy? What's that?") we're on the right track.
Yes.
CoffeeBot wrote: ...Moving on to comments about chuck's other thoughts...

Numbers for faction relations -- agreed. Bad juju. However, I'm not sure just using friendly/neutral/hostile as descriptors is enough. If, however, there were better in-game signs to show more than a binary relationship (either they attack you or they don't), then the three descriptors are fine. As it is, the only difference between friendly and neutral is whether or not they'll help you in a fight, or say "hello" as you pass.
Those numbers are indeed a sign of poor UI. They will eventually be replaced by something more useful, as will the underlying system be severely tweaked... eventually.
CoffeeBot wrote: That said, however, I don't think spending a little extra time in one system, or working as a crew-member on another ship ever hurt anyone. Perhaps raising the price or limiting the availability of the jump drive would be a good idea -- it more or less ensures that everyone is comfortable with the flight system before they venture out into more unknown regions.
It is also worth considering that starting conditions in single and multiplayer need not be the same. Indeed, I am rather opposed, in terms of initial possessions and financial standing, at the least, to them being the same. Also, the goal of 'encultration' in the VS universe will likely be some differently approached in single and multi-player. I have no qualms about multi-player being to some degree more confusing (at least in terms of lack of hand-holding) than either of the single-player modes (especially given a distinct tutorial scenario).
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

JackS wrote:If the player does not assist us by bothering to absorb sufficient background knowledge (made readily available, but not thrust in the player's face) to understand the consequences or motivations for actions they have been asked to undertake or take it upon themselves to perform, or the dynamics supporting some given state of the universe, this is not our responsibility - this is a failure to appropriately role-play the PC, unless one is assuming that the PC has decided to isolate his/herself from society behind a wall of willful ignorance, and while we should ensure that the player is able to muddle on in oblivious fashion, it is not our responsibility to open the eyes of the willingly blind.
First: To whatever extent my personal ideosyncracies could be generalized, I enjoy reading, and most of the time you'd find me carrying a book. And I enjoy games where there's a lot of stuff to read in-game. But reading background information off-game is a bit more like "work" than like "play", to me. I think that moving that information in-game, somehow, would be a good first step, at least to my taste.

Second: The big problem with objectivity is that it bores subjects. That's why students in schools have to be prodded all the time through punishments and rewards... School books are written in the most boring way possible, precisely to make learning painful, precisely to make the reward of a piece of paper necessary. But I'm getting OT...
It would be so much more fun to have one version of VS history for each faction, as recounted by that faction --biased, distorted, dramatic--, than to have one true, objective story, but not care enough about it. Then zip up the true, original story, and place it in cvs... encrypted.
Yep, if I start the game in klkk territory I wouldn't mind getting brainwashed fanatical about the klkk while there. Later I can find out about all the lies they told me; but for now at least I'd care about something, and not nothing. As it is, one can play for a week trading between Atlantis and Serenity and not realize that klkk isn't the kkk, if the 'l' is easily missed in the display. After a week or even two in klkk territory one knows absolutetely nothing, zero, about who they are, what they stand for, or even what they look like.

Another way to look at it: We usually appreciate things more when they don't come easy. Truth is something nobody would care for if there weren't so many lies to sift through. Vegastrike needs a lot of lies, so as to allow players to care, and look for, truth.

It's fine to give the player choice as to which faction to be best friends with, but first the player should be pushed around by circumstances a bit. After having identified with a few sides in succession, the player can make a more "emotionally informed" choice, in the sense of knowing what it "feels like" to be with this or that faction. There is no true "knowledge" without subjectivity and identification, unless by "knowledge" we understand a mere mechanical "storing of information", as in a hard drive.

And identification can work through pleasurable or painful flashpoints. I can identify with a faction if they are great inventors; and have come up with revolutionary drives, shields and weapons and whatnot, at various times. But I could identify with them even more if one other faction that, they tell me, were their best firends, suddenly decided to switch sides, betray them, steal all their inventions... even use them against them. A feeling of injustice can be a strong identification point, and the desire to reverse that injustice could be a great motivator for the player. Much stronger than just wanting to make money, just to upgrade the ship, just to make more money, just to...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are great opportunities to make this game a lot more fun and deeper and more involving just by changing a few things in the way the knowledge of its universe is delivered; --namely doing it in-game, and putting more drama into it.

Or, to put it another way: Vegastrike seems like two disconnected games in one:

1) Trading, upgrading the ship, fighting luddites, repeat. No story.
2) A huge universe where there would seem to be a lot going on, but no apparent way to tell what exactly, and no apparent role to play in it.

What I've been talking about is possible ways of fixing that are on topic in this forum. Other ways, off-topic here, would be...

OT
... to increase dependencies between the two "sub-games", namely making more comprehensive economies --having so many items that it is impossible to keep track of prices on paper so the player HAS TO understand the factions strengths and weaknesses, surpluses and needs, to be able to trade effectively--; and having the player's actions, even as a trader, affect the future of the Universe. For example, after doing a number of missions for one employer and gaining their trust, they tell you they have a very special mission for you: They are developing a new missile that's capable of intelligently switching between stealth mode, normal radar, and jamming mode, while on its way to the target. But they haven't been able to perfect "sub-fractal synthetic aperture" technology. They got a spy in the territory of another faction, who has obtained a sample, but they suspect there's a spy for yet a third faction that monitors communications, and that this third faction, who control space on the way of the delivery, might want to stop the delivery.
If you succeed on this mission and the faction of your employer manages to produce this missile, it should have a deep impact on the outcome of their future battles; and/or it should affect their economy positively if they manage to manufacture this missile for sale to a wealthier faction.
/OT
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