Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

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chuck_starchaser
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Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I've nothing concrete to propose, and nothing to contribute here, except
a modus operandi.
The problem, as I see it, is that Vegastrike is not fully a game, yet. The project was initially inspired
in Wing Commander's Privateer. Same basic idea: Trade or fight to make money, upgrade your
ship, buy a new ship, explore, become friends/enemies with any factions you want... But the big
fun in Privateer began when you met Sandoval, and the big quest began.
I think this was always the idea for Vegastrike, but for some reason or other it never happened.
The only person I know that put some thought into a story was Safemode, but in my not so humble
opinion he fell into the moving sands of aiming too high; and concentrating too much on game flow
control technologies he wanted to implement, to try and give the player complete freedom. I think
he wanted for the player's choices to shape the story and have consequences that no coder could
foresee. Or something along the lines. I thought it was a job for NASA at the time, and told him so;
though not in the exact words.

Anyways, Vegastrike is at a crossroads, right now, with JackS not having time to give direction
to the game (universe documentation, story writing, art vetting), and the engine developers are
working on a new engine, which supposedly will replace the vegastrike engine, but we have no
way to know when it will be ready.
Both situations are supposed to be temporary, yet not short-term. I, for one, would like to see
this project going somewhere, in the meantime; but I think there's a lot of risk of crossing lines
in the canon department; and if JackS can't be bothered with questions, then we have a problem.
So, my suggestion is writing a story-line/quest, a new, different one, happening at the same time
as UTCS, more or less, where you're a different character; as far away as possible from the
system where you start now; --was it Cephid? Whatever...

Before I shut up, I'll leave a suggestion on the table: Don't be obsessed with having branches
in the story. The story line in Privateer was totally linear, and totally fun. People get so crazy
about intellectual features like "if it doesn't have branches it's not acceptable". That's like an
artist trying to please critics... It kills the spirit. What matters in a story is the substance, not so
much the form. Characters that you can identify with, that you can love to the point of shedding
tears if they get killed. As well as plots that are hard to figure out, mysteries wrapped inside
enigmas. And lots of human, emotional, psychological, philosophical, political, criminal, and
whatever elements. Funny characters, melancholic characters, heroic characters, false mystics,
true mystics, occultists, druggies, dancers, inventors, rebels, collectors, treasure hunters,
explorers, scientists, musicians...
If you start off thinking about form and mechanics and game technologies, you'll end up with
nothing to show after working for months.
You can't enter the Creative Universe with your problem-solving mind; you need to leave that
mind behind, and put on the creative mind. You need to get into the mood of your story before
you even know what the story is. Just concentrate on the mood of that time and place in the
far future, sit there and watch what's going on. Don't try to control it; just BE there, and let the
story and the characters come to you.
And then write, write, and write some more. Describe the people, the places, make drawings.
If seven people could come up with very unique settings and environments and situations,
then we'd have enough material to start to thread something together. The quest can move
through all these settings and get to know the people involved.
Others could think of competing interests, secret conspiracies and whatnot. But that's easy.
The hard part is the things that require inspiration; that require imagining a world like none
we've ever experienced; people with values and aspirations very unlike our own.
When you write, you have to write for yourself and to yourself. Only you exist. Forget the
people in this forum; forget the world. Great art never tries to please; it never strives for
approval. It just is. Your story has to be YOUR (very personal) story. It has to help you
figure something out about yourself. It has to address your deepest fears and your highest
aspirations. If it doesn't, then it will lack heart. Be sure that what you do is a labor of love.

EDIT:
Sorry; I meant to post this in the Authoring forum. Feel free to move it there.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by charlieg »

Agreed about the branches - in Privateer the storyline was fun because it was optional. You could shoot off somewhere else and do missions (with their own mini storylines) and upgrade your ship then, when you were all good, dig back in to the story. That made it feel non-linear, because you weren't forced in to your next move.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by nphillips »

I completely agree.

Plus, don't forget about the traditional distinction between linear and non-linear plots! You're selling yourself (and Privateer) short, chuck.

A linear game means the player has NO OPTIONS about anything regarding plot or progression. They are forced to behave in a certain fashion, regardless of what they want to do. The original Wing Commander games did just that. One mission after another, no choice in the direction the game goes. Yeah, there were plot forks that depended on mission wins or losses, but it was still linear.

Non-linear doesn't force the player to do anything they don't want to. Certainly, Priv's storyline was one-sided, and set forth in an explicit chain of events, but you didn't have to do any of the missions if you didn't want to. Just stop doing the missions and pick up some cargo runs, or bounties. Your ship upgrades weren't tied to mission completion; the entire map was open to you (for the most part) without having to jump through someone else's hoops.

It's all about choice, not path progression. Unfortunately, everyone wants to be able to make every choice possible which then alters the path progression. That's stupid, programming-wise. Like you said: a job for NASA. But if there are multiple ways to reach a goal (brute force or negotiation?), you toss the player a bone by allowing them to complete the missions in their own fashion. As far as I'm aware, it's easier to program a little extra logic into some key NPCs, and keep the plot on a boolean-based path.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Ahhh, gottchas.

Yeah, choice is good.

Bit of an explanation: I don't necessarily hate branches, per se. I slightly detest them in the sense
that if there are too many in a game, I get curious how the story goes in the other branches, and
to find out I *have to* play the game again; which may be enjoyable; but it is still sort of *forcing*
me to play again. I've read branch advocate articles which say it "adds replay value"; but to me
that's not exactly "replay value"; it's more like "replay necessity".

And then I had two experiences working with people who belived in branches like a religion:
One with Captain Cocksniff, at the WCU forum, when we were trying to come up with a P3
(Privateer 3) plot, and he wanted the player to have the choice to fight for the Confeds or
to join a rebel group and desert. He was working on these two branches and wondering
how they would ever re-join. An impossible task.
Then I continued the plot work with Captain Falafel, and he also was trying to create
branches here and there, which was slowing down the brainstorming to a crawl.

In both cases I had to work hard to disabuse them of the notion that it was necessary to have
branches.

I think a branch would be well justified when it just happens... And what I mean by that is that
two people come up with different ideas for a plot, and both of the ideas are very good, and
so it's hard to decide between them. Maybe the best thing to do in such a case is throw
both plots into the game.
All I meant to say is forget about form, what matters more is the substance.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by snow_Cat »

^ - -^ What is we need to do is to make these 'branches' essentially independant to play through but also backtracable.

^- - ^ Merchant A is operating machinations to achieve goal B (personal advancement i his guild or some such),
^ - -^ whilst Miner C is plotting revenge on mercinary D (killed mate or some such),
^- - ^ who then in turn has been running his own campaign impeding merchant A (political convenience/status quo).

^ - -^ Each story 'unfolds' through 'player' actions but can be 'rewound' by bringing victories to the opposing side;

^ . .^ (I'll have to dig out my photobucket account, but I have a visulatzation for this)
EDIT wrote:added flow chart
Actors A,C,D are represented by colors R,B,G
Each node represents the next mission (or mission area) in each of the actor's campaign branches.
Bright wedges represent a successful player result at a advancing an actor's goals.
Dark wedges represent a failure player result at advancing an actor's goals.
Wedges that have been hollowed out represent a plater success at impeding an actor's goals.
Image represents 'introduction to my motives' missions
Image represents an actor's 'endgame' mission (still get to be a bastard though)
Image represents all other nodes.
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Last edited by snow_Cat on Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I've read that 7 times and no chow. Curious what the diagram will show.

I'm all for using snazzy techniques; so don't get me wrong; but I want to
reiterate what I said in my original post, however, since it doesn't seem
to have generated comments: Story writing has to come from the heart;
not from the mind, to really be good. Of course, that doesn't mean one
has to "fry one's brains"; it means that the mind needs to be made
subservient to the deep feelings at work, rather than take leadership.
All the tricks and techniques in the world won't create a good, touching
story. You end up with black and white stories.. party A hates party B,
who are in competition with C, who want to get technology D, and at
the end of the day it's all garbage. We need quality settings, with color
and depth and interesting personalities; with comedy and tragedy and
leaving the player with profound questions to ponder.

EDIT:
Saw your chart now; but I still don't get it. (In fact, I don't even get what
the intent is.)
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by charlieg »

I think what snow_cat is getting at is making certain aspects of the storyline only accessible if you are aligned correctly with a particular faction, with multiple routes to the final goal.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by snow_Cat »

I have a method I use when I am playing a gamemaster; hang my plot from an established game-flow framework and tie up the loose ends. It is obstently programatic but it does produce useable results quickly.

The above was meant to ilustrate one possible solution to the non-linear branching problem with paraell advancing plots. This is usually the tool I use while planning to move players from between missions* using multiple Mr-Johnsons when I am setting up a campaign setting.

Hidden from the players each Mr-Johnson has a gamepiece on this secret map that is moved when a player completes assignement. A Mr-Johnson will offer the player a number of choices that either advance their gamepiece or retard another's. The seemingly irregular makeup of this map (failure is often lateral) gives a more realistic appearance of progress to the player and avoids the feeling of being set-back by not being sent-back.

Each node represents a specific area of intrest to a given Mr-Johnson on the way to her goal. For this reason multiple nodes often represent the same area but for different reasons. Usually the further out from the center ring you go the number of D's from the "Dirty, Dangerous, Duteous" rubrik increases.

* (or between scenarios more accuratly, as the specific type of assignment changes with each visit.)
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Nope. I don't get it, and at this rate never will. Forget cross-dressing Mr Johnsons and
confusing pseudo-examples. Give me a real example. Detailed. No A, B, C, X, Y or
any abstractions; because the way you write I don't know if your symbols represent
people, places, missions, transactions, states, or WTF. I need a clear example.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by snow_Cat »

^ - -^ LOL. Untill you pointed that out I've never realised that I've never distinguished between {people, places, transactions, or states} conceptulising everything as {symbols} instead.

^- - ^ Give me a few days and I'll fleshout some guild skirmish example; you'll have to find a couple of d6's (or coins) to see how it works however.
edit wrote:err... I'll move my structured plot method to another thread when I am ready.

Please continue the discussion here.
Last edited by snow_Cat on Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

snow_Cat wrote:^- - ^ Give me a few days and I'll fleshout some guild skirmish example; you'll have to find a couple of d6's (or coins) to see how it works however.
Better hurry up; I just got a mail that my unemployment insurance is finished; so I may not have coins for much longer.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by Dawe »

How about it then! where do we start?!

I've got an altenate beginning I've been thinking about. Just to get this thing started, as this thread has gone in to hibernation.

How about you start as a young person (insert name here), who manages to get hold of a small cargo ship in the Cephid 17 System. First he will get some specail cargo missions, such as delivering cargo to a the miningstation and bringing some ore home. Then moving on to supplying incoming capital ships with goods, as that requires some more finesse in handling the ship. That would then be the main start.. after completing these missions it could open up for missions with i.e. delivering precious cargo for the merchants, carrying contraband for the pirates etc etc, the list goes long as the list with factions because everyone needs cargo hauled. Or the PC can just do random hauling or scouting missions to get some cash for a new ship.
Also I'd like to have these missions not be cumpolsury, but there needs to be some substance to the game, and a story gives a whole lot of substance!

Furthermore Cephid 17 is a good starting system, but personally I think that the Llama is an overpowered starting ship. I was thinking more in the lines of a Kafka, so the player can get to know how to steer the ship and how to haul goods properly as it is essential in the early game.

Comments please! If you like it or hate it, comment! I'm open for discussion and changes! If the new OpenVS campaign (as i will call it as long as we don't have a proper name) is to get past it's infant stage we need a good brainstorming discussion
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by Rodan »

If you would all permit some colour commentary from the peanut gallery:

I was involved in the story/mission development for a (sadly stillborn) sci fi mod for Doom 3 [1], so I've seen some of these ideas/concerns crop up before. To give you background, here's how our story had come together:
  • We did the story first
  • We then chopped it up into pieces based on mission/game engine needs.
  • Campaign progression was basically linear.
  • Mission types were mostly "Kill dude X" or "Blow up thing Y", with a few "one objective many solutions" missions thrown in
  • A few optional downtimes were inserted to let the player catch their breath and do some non-linear exploration/combat/equipment upgrading
  • A checkpoint save system, with a "costly quicksave" option [3]
  • One large-ish branch that split off and rejoined near the end. [4]
  • A nice twist (if I say so myself) at the end
Not all of these are pertinent to VS, but they are the background from which I make my comments. I had a bunch of thoughts as I read this thread, but they've evaporated now[5]. My basic reaction is: Good ideas, but here's some stuff to watch out for.

The missions in VS 0.5.x are basically: fly to location (scan), fly to many locations (patrol), kill thingee (bounty), protect thingee (escort), carry thingee to place (cargo). Good solid basics -- but having a few more nuanced options (perhaps ship-to-ship comm based) would give mission creators a lot more flexibility in following the finer details of a given story. I've been considering learning enough python to work on the mission generator tool mentioned in the wiki, although I doubt I'd be very effective at it.

But that's getting ahead of the main important issue: a solid story.

Dawe, I like your idea for starting out. In fact, the "inherited your first ship" paradigm has been used often and successfully in many space shooters. It removes the need to develop a deep and consistent backstory that has to appeal to most players, and it can't jar the player out of suspension of disbelief with any ill-fitting preconceptions (since they simply don't exist in the first place) [6].

The first missions should really be tutorial-ish, so cargo running is a good start. Is it possible to add tooltips, or comment boxes, to the "base" activities? These would go a long way to smoothing out the initial experience. I know I had to struggle with my first few hours in VS. Some games separate the tutorial from the main story [7], so that's another option too.

The tutorial (if any) and first few missions should make a few things absolutely 100% unambiguously 135dB blinking-neon-fuschia-and-plaid fool-proof crystal clear obvious: identify dead-set goodies/baddies, how various ships match up ("Your Llama can take on the occasional Hyena or Dodo, but stay clear of enemy Lancelots and Goddards!" [8]), one good starter cargo run (Atlantis - Serenity is good for this); but most importantly: What's the next step?

This last item is notably lacking at the end of the current "Jenek" mission -- I felt bad about killing some poor schmuck, so I had said no to Luviccio(sp?) earler, and the story came to a complete dead stop without telling me. Then, after I was "forced" to change my mind [9] and carry those explosives, he tells me the galaxy is my oyster. But I'd already gone elsewhere to earn money for better gear, anticipating a more difficult battle in his mission.

Alright, I'm just running my mouth now, so I'll shut up ;) But those are my initial thoughts. I don't really know enough about VS canon to really get into the guts, but that's up to a given story's author (and later on, the editor) anyways.

HTH

-Rodan

------------------------------------
[1] Don't worry, I'm not trying to sell you failure ;) The storyline actually won the ModDB "Best Story" for 2005. Its failures were coding and leadership related. [2]
[2] I hope you like footnotes -- I like to be thorough without interrupting the flow of my text.
[3] Beyond the scope of this post -- I'll go into details if anyone is really interested.
[4] Structurally like the light side/dark side options in most Jedi games.
[5] My mind is like a steel trap: It's old and rusty, and mangles anything that gets inside.
[6] viz. the completely mute Gordon Freeman of Half-Life fame
[7] One of the Splinter Cell games did this to great effect IIRC.
[8] This would tie into an aesthetics/sense-of-scale discussion I've seen elsewhere on the boards -- if you can tell visually that a ship is dangerous, be it with super-expensive radiators or some obvious squadron markings, that's one less bit of hand-holding needed on the new player's part.
[9] This would have been a good place for a branch -- kill Jenek, or kill Luviccio?
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by Dawe »

Thanks for the tips and comments Rodan!
I'm thinking of a linear campaign, to start with, the various branches should be a later priority. So that a main plot can be drawn.

As for the beginning of the campaign I completly agree with you that the first missions should be baby-step tutorial, teaching all the basics to the new players. And the idea of an inherited ship by some oldtimer is what i had in mind already. It also gives a good narrative to a teacher to guide the player through the tutorial experience.

You're right about the state of the campaign now, it's a half done mess.. that's why it seriously needs a redo.

About the coding.. Last time i Checked they where working on coding templates so to speak. Coded templates where i.e. if you had a cargo mission you just needed to set the cargo type and from where to where and then voila! That along with some other details, there was also a way to chain together missions, in other words making campaigns.
I'll check this up again, and keep you posted!
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Thanks. Glad to see this thread revived.
The idea of the player starting with an inherited ship was something I already took for granted, if for no other reason that the game engine is almost hardcoded for the Privateer-like paradigm.
Not that it wouldn't be a refreshing change to have a game in which you're a fighter pilot aboard a carrier, like in Wing Commander, for instance; but the VS engine can't do it right now. It would require at minimum two features: Moving away from the ship-ownership paradigm. On a carrier, all ships are owned by the military, and you're given different ships suited to different missions; but the engine hard-codes ownership assumptions.
Number two, it would need to blur the distinction between a base and a ship. Your carrier is your base AND it flies through space; but the VS engine can't do that, yet, AFAIK.
Anyways, just thinking aloud...

But yeah; the main thing is the story, or stories.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by denyasis »

Dawe wrote: You're right about the state of the campaign now, it's a half done mess.. that's why it seriously needs a redo.

About the coding.. Last time i Checked they where working on coding templates so to speak. Coded templates where i.e. if you had a cargo mission you just needed to set the cargo type and from where to where and then voila! That along with some other details, there was also a way to chain together missions, in other words making campaigns.
I'll check this up again, and keep you posted!

I guess this brings up the 800 lbs gorilla in the room. Is there anyone left here who can (as in has or knows how to) code missions for the engine? Along the same lines, I think we need to open the "Campaign Forum" to the public. Curtailing the flow of info will hurt us more than the possibility of someone viewing the plans for the "twist ending".

I have no idea what's in the forum, but I hope it will be a place where info on mission creation (tutorials, the above mentioned templates, etc) can be collected. That info is crucial if we want to keep the project going and MUST be ACCESSIBLE for new-comers looking to contribute.

Also, I would second Chuck's advice the he frequently gives in reference to artistic contributors. Start small. Set small, achievable goals. We don't need 15km sized Battle-cruisers and we don't need a 15 branches of super plot. 1 shot unique missions or short arcs that can be quickly implemented would give the universe a level of Immersion that not even Privateer had. Once you have a team of competent scripters and writers with a few side-quests under their belts, then you can move onto a plot with Campaigns and the kitchen sink.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by Dawe »

Well as for now I'm trying to do what I'm able to do. It doesn't help me or the project getting stuck because i don't know coding.
I'll try my best contributing with some story line as that is what i can do.

Everything has to start somehere, doesn't matter from what direction.
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by Dawe »

I got an idea I've been thinking of for a while now.
Why don't we just more or less reuse the first couple of missions that already in the tutorial campaign? it would save us some time and effort. The only thing the person coding it would need to do, as I can see, would be renaming the main character and maybe some dialog. I'm not saying to keep all of the missions. But at least the two first (as they are the ones I've played through recently, haven't tried or found the other ones yet)
Pros and cons I can think of with this:

Pros. It will save us time as the changes I can see are not so much code based. Also giving us a good start to continue from

Cons. The first few missions are somewhat rusty in the tutorial aspect. they more or less throw you out into space with some messages saying this is how to accelerate and find your target.

So how about it?
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Re: Stories, plots, quests... A proposal

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Sounds good.
One thing I don't like about the current implementation of the tutorial is that this guy attacks you like a door to door salesman as soon as you launch into space. Would be nicer if you saw an ad from a flight tutor in the mission computer, or your character would tell the first bartender you meet, "you know, I got a ship, an inheritance, but I never flew one...", and the bartender said "Glad you asked, I have a friend that would be glad to teach you the ropes. Let me talk to him...
..............
He says he's free right now and will meet you in space as soon as you launch, if you agree."
And then you can agree or decline. And he should charge some money; we can increase the player's starting credits to compensate.
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