Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

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Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Hi everyone,

Before anything else, apologies if I've posted in the wrong place :| .

I was trying to mod my own (admittedly somewhat overpowered :twisted: ) ships with blender, and so far have modeled a fleet carrier with 15k polys, and a supporting fighter, with 33k polys. (The carrier is just at the starting point atm, I intend to finish up with about 60k polys)
While going over the Development Guidelines in the wiki, I read that 15k polys for a fighter was the norm and 120k polys for a carrier, and while looking at the docs on other ships, I found that while my carrier would have been 2.4 kilometres long, this is only just over half of a tesla cruiser's length.

So my questions are: About how long, wide, and high, should a carrier/battleship//fighter and everything in between, be?
To what size should I make them in blender, or can they be scaled up/down in VS?
How do the VS textures work? I can do textures with blender, not that well though, as I'm more used to Pov-Ray.

Please excuse my ignorance, but if you don't ask you'll never learn. :wink:

Blackbeard (no I'm not a pirate, I just couldn't think of a decent username :wink: )
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by klauss »

They can be scaled, no problem with that.

Blender is the most widely supported tool, you'll find a lot of help regarding blender here, not so much with other tools.

Regarding polycount, I don't know if the wiki mentions this, but those polycounts assume LODs. You have to produce LODs down to a couple hundred polies for ships, maybe thousand something or 2k for stations, otherwise performance will be horrible when many of the ships are drawn at a distance.

Three lods (full, mid-detail and low) are enough, but if you can provide more all the better.

LOD models can use different textures than full-detail models, so know that you have the extra freedom.
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Right so I don't need to worry about the scale. :D

Yeah the wiki did mention LODs, currently I'm just working on full scale models at full poly count atm.
Perhaps 5 LODs would be optimal? Not too much info, but still easier on the game.

Having a bit of trouble with textures, am currently scouring blenderartists.org for help on uv textures/images.

I'm still a bit confused about the sizes of ships, I mean, 4 kilometres for a cruiser?! :shock: What size is a battleship going to be? Or a carrier?
One thing I did notice about the tesla though, it's quite thin like a cylinder, whereas my planned carrier is proportionately a lot wider, and slightly higher.

I also read on the wiki that VS still needs more ships. What sort, and would a carrier fit the bill? :)

Many thanks for the help,
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by travists »

I have yet to get up to speed on Blender, but there is a free modeling program out there called Open FX one of the tools in its arsenal is decimate. What that does is remove polys while trying to maintain the shape. I suspect blender has something similar or a plugin that will do that. make it full scale than hack it up!
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by klauss »

Usually, those automatic LODders don't work very well. They create lots of artifacts, and the resulting meshes are either very difficult to or poorly unwrapped.

Most artists will tell you to do it by hand, usually by keeping your starting primitives at hand, using modifier stacks and that kind of stuff. I don't know, I'm not a pro modeller. I've just been around them enough to soak up a little of their stuff ;)
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Had to kind of suspend work on the ships, the computer I use for modeling isn't really up to it, and it's a non-standard case, so it's hard to upgrade.
I'm getting a new machine next year though, and maybe I'll be able to play VS again. :D :D :D
Until then, I'm stuck with an Intel Atom netbook, with only Pov-Ray for company. :(

Another reason I've had to stop is that I really need other ship's specs for reference, and without VS working, and the wiki database being incomplete, I have not much to go by, hence my numerous questions about ship sizes. :D
Also, I need to learn more about texturing in blender, my first attempts totally failed. :lol:

Anyway, I've attached some images of what I've done so far.
Thanks for the advice and help, hopefully in a couple of months I'll be able to get back to it. :)
Super Fighter WIP.png
Super Fighter WIP side.png
Super Fighter WIP front.png
Regards, Blackbeard.
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by travists »

Flying pencil should help to get your point across! :twisted: Stated dimensions sound big for a fighter, but proportions are great.

In space a block is as valid of a design as a U.S. F-22, but this thing looks like it needs a set of canard winglets on the front.

Stock color yellow with a silver and pink thruster assembly, and a tan and black nose?
(Sorry, great design just looks like someone strapped wings on a pencil.)
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

travists wrote:Flying pencil should help to get your point across! :twisted: Stated dimensions sound big for a fighter, but proportions are great.
It is a bit large, but it carries four heavy ion beams, four laser or disruptor beams, and one p-minus beam mk iv, plus some missile hardpoints on the wings. :twisted:
Needs a fair amount of space for that lot, and the reactor, and shields, while still having some space for cargo. :)
Also, I think it would be better designated as a heavy superiority/assault/all-rounder fighter.
In space a block is as valid of a design as a U.S. F-22, but this thing looks like it needs a set of canard winglets on the front.
As I said on the image comments, it's designed for planetary flight as well as space flight, though planetary flight is a secondary priority, and canards are indeed on the list. :D
Stock color yellow with a silver and pink thruster assembly, and a tan and black nose?
(Sorry, great design just looks like someone strapped wings on a pencil.)
:lol: Don't be sorry, it's still a WIP.
Planned (once I get a decent computer) are hardpoints on the wings, a better fuselage (less pencil looking :lol: ), a better rear section,
and of course a decent texture (not yellow with pink thrusters :lol: ).

Thanks for the comments, (and the laughs :lol: )
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Blackbeard wrote:and of course a decent texture (not yellow with pink thrusters :lol: ).
On the other hand, why not?
After all, the pen is mightier than the sword... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by travists »

What really gives it that pencil look is the two rings on the aft/thruster section. Many aircraft from the late '60 through '80s even into the '90s had a cylinder with a point and wings design. With the "eraser" end and length/diameter ratio the main body just struck me (late at night) as a pencil. And, I see no reason why some craft can't have some humor in the design.

So, if "the pen is mightier than the sword", should this be called the negotiator?

*** Afterthought: That would then leave an opining for a lighter craft named after a sword!
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:So, if "the pen is mightier than the sword", should this be called the negotiator?

*** Afterthought: That would then leave an opining for a lighter craft named after a sword!
:lol:

bd
thumbs up
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

travists wrote:What really gives it that pencil look is the two rings on the aft/thruster section. Many aircraft from the late '60 through '80s even into the '90s had a cylinder with a point and wings design. With the "eraser" end and length/diameter ratio the main body just struck me (late at night) as a pencil. And, I see no reason why some craft can't have some humor in the design.
The two rings are to become three anyway, and their purpose is to act on the exhaust as EHD thrust boosters,
to give a bit more thrust. :wink:

I tried fixing it with blender today on the computer I normally use, it's just too slow. Oh well, give it a couple of months...
So, if "the pen is mightier than the sword", should this be called the negotiator?

*** Afterthought: That would then leave an opining for a lighter craft named after a sword!
Considering its enormous weapon load, IMO negotiator isn't quite the right name? :twisted:
But I'm quite open to all (reasonable) suggestions.

Also you can't just buy one of the shelf you know... a flight of these things should be able to take down a decent sized capship, so I'm not going to make them cheap. :( (you gotta draw the line somewhere...)

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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

i haz a n00 maChiNe!!! :lol:

Got a brilliant new computer the other day, so far only got windows 7 on it, but I put blender 2.61 on and have started on my ships again.
Being able to play Vega Strike (only 0.5.0 for now, will get svn later) properly for the first time has narrowed my ideas for the ships down to about three.

The "super fighter" will be redesigned somewhat, perhaps losing its wings to wing stubs with missile hardpoints on the tips, and the nose will also be redesigned to look less like a aeroplane and have more room for weapons, the intent is to have a fighter that can out-manoeuvre and out-shoot both the ariston and nicander fighters and any other fighter. ( I have lost Lancelots, Gawains, and numerous Pacifiers and a few other ships, including a couple of Franklins, so I am not happy with the aera. :evil: Side note: Has anyone succeeded in a rescue mission? The escape pods always get blown up before I can get near enough to tractor them in. :evil:

Another ship I would like is a small corvette or destroyer type, capable of carrying a dozen or so support fighters, and also being capable of taking out thales, those aera merchant marine ships which don't do anything, and light capships with relative ease. At the same time, it also needs to mount several turrets, for defense against attacking fighters.

Last, but by NO means least, will be a proper fleet carrier, think something 4 times the size of a Hawking cruiser (with a different shape of course).
This should be capable of taking a very generous :twisted: complement of fighters and bombers of all shapes and sizes, and at the same time mounting a very wide range of turrets, for anti-fighter, anti-bomber, and general destruction purposes. :twisted:

The intended history for all these is that they have been commissioned by the Confed because of the war with the Aera, and are manufactured in some of the Guild's numerous shipyards. Naturally the price tags will be appropriate. :wink:

On a different note, while the modelling part is going quite well now, I need a lot of help learning texturing in blender, and I also don't know how to put my ships in Vega Strike so I can test them. If anyone can help with these issues I will be very grateful, and if you like I will post the end results on the forums. :)
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by klauss »

Blackbeard wrote:Side note: Has anyone succeeded in a rescue mission? The escape pods always get blown up before I can get near enough to tractor them in. :evil: [/size]
No, I've tried to make it winnable, but still no success.
I think with the latest commits to SVN it should be doable, but I haven't succeeded yet, even when I got in time to the pod, I could not tractor it in.
Still a work in progress.
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

klauss wrote:
Blackbeard wrote:Side note: Has anyone succeeded in a rescue mission? The escape pods always get blown up before I can get near enough to tractor them in. :evil: [/size]
No, I've tried to make it winnable, but still no success.
I think with the latest commits to SVN it should be doable, but I haven't succeeded yet, even when I got in time to the pod, I could not tractor it in.
Still a work in progress.
Ok, thanks for the info. :)
Blackbeard wrote:On a different note, while the modelling part is going quite well now, I need a lot of help learning texturing in blender, and I also don't know how to put my ships in Vega Strike so I can test them. If anyone can help with these issues I will be very grateful, and if you like I will post the end results on the forums. :)
Found an excellent video tutorial last night, which explained uv mapping and unwrapping very well, so I just need pointers on using the models in-game.
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Just read the wiki on units.csv, obviously I will need to add a section for each ship.
Edit: Will I need to recompile the game after adding info? If so, I won't be able to do any testing until I can get linux and internet access for my new machine.

I've just found the howtos section on modeling and adding ships to VS in the wiki! This is what I've been looking for since my first post! :D

Time for some reading... :?
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Ok, I've spent the last 4 hours, trawling through the wikis, on howtos, looking at the development pages and style guidelines, and I've learned a few things, and been confused over a whole lot more. :?

A lot of the info on the wiki and especially the howtos, had notices like "this information is obsolete" and similar things. Consequently I do not have a clear idea as to what I need to know. The development pages and style guidelines are for the most part all works-in-progress or in some cases works-to-be-started.
Not trying to get at anyone here, and I realise that the people in charge are probably well aware of the situation, but the whole thing looks like it need a good cleanup. :|

Another thing I noticed was, the amount of unfinished models in the data base. I know the VS universe is meant to be very diverse, but it needs finished ships. There must be dozens of ships which are not finished, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of them look like they haven't been worked on in ages. :(

Again, not trying to get anyone's back up, just trying to "raise awareness" of the problem.
And, as a "spare time" modeler, I know that time is not an abundant commodity. :(

Perhaps once I have learned enough to be able to get my ships in-game, then if any help is required with other models...
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by klauss »

We're aware the wiki needs work, but it would help if you posted links to the ones you'd want worked on first. Mostly because over time I've actually lost track of the wiki, so if you point me towards the pages in need of attention, we could perhaps improve the situation.
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

klauss wrote:We're aware the wiki needs work, but it would help if you posted links to the ones you'd want worked on first. Mostly because over time I've actually lost track of the wiki, so if you point me towards the pages in need of attention, we could perhaps improve the situation.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make anyone's life hard(er) or anything, just wanted to find the info I was looking for with a reasonable degree of ease.

The pages I was looking at were these: http://wiki.vega-strike.org/HowTo:Add_Ships, most of these, http://wiki.vega-strike.org/Category:Artstyle_guides, the tutorials in the tutorial section here are incomplete, though I realise completion is up to the people who started them.

I can't remember all of the pages I looked at, there were a lot, not all of them needed working on, but the ones that did, along with unfinished tutorials, confused me sufficiently to post. Though, looking at them again now, I may have posted a wee bit hastily, maybe I just had an info overload. :wink:
Certainly I had second thoughts about even trying to get my models in-game. :shock:

That's not saying that the wiki doesn't need work though either, just that perhaps I painted it blacker than it is in my previous post. :?
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Just to see if I've got this right, to add a ship to VS, assuming the model is finished, I have to:

1. export the model to .obj
This seems the easy part...

2. convert the .obj to .bfxm using mesher.exe
What is an MTL file, and how do I generate one, or are they generated automatically, or what?

3. add the textures to the MTL
I'm mostly confused with this one, because of the two methods of editing/adding textures with mesher and via xmesh.
If I want LODs, do I have to use xmesh? It just looks like a lot of work for what has to be done. :(

4. edit units.csv
I think I can handle this one, it's fair amount of editing, but it looks rather straightforward.

5. do some testing of the unit in-game
The page says that the info is obsolete and being reworked, yet the info looks just the same as my save games... ?

6. making the ship buyable
I don't understand part 2 of this. At all.

7. giving the ship to npc
Need to do more digging on this one, looks relatively intuitive.

P.S. Thanks to all who have helped me with this, esp. klauss. :D
There's a lot of info I still need to learn, but you guys have helped along a lot. Thanks again. :D
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by klauss »

Blackbeard wrote: 2. convert the .obj to .bfxm using mesher.exe
What is an MTL file, and how do I generate one, or are they generated automatically, or what?
Blender generates one when you export to .obj (it actually creates two files).
You just have to edit it a bit with a text editor.
Blackbeard wrote: 3. add the textures to the MTL
I'm mostly confused with this one, because of the two methods of editing/adding textures with mesher and via xmesh.
If I want LODs, do I have to use xmesh? It just looks like a lot of work for what has to be done. :(
You can do it both ways, the easiest IMO is with the MTL file, since you can go directly from obj -> bfxm like that in one go. But obj files do not support LODs, so if you want LODs, you'll have to go through the xmesh format. obj -> xmesh, do the editing, then xmesh -> bfxm.

Honestly, these parts you can leave to the "pros". As long as you have and contribute the assets, someone else can manage all this complicated stuff. But you would do well in understanding it, it's not hard once you get used to it.

If you want to know how it goes, you can always convert some of the existing models to xmesh and take a peek.
Blackbeard wrote: 4. edit units.csv
I think I can handle this one, it's fair amount of editing, but it looks rather straightforward.
Don't underestimate this step. You have some complicated stuff here, like figuring out the exhaust coordinates and sizes, mount points, subunits, etc...

You should use blender to get coordinate numbers, btw. It's not magic, lots of people think they have to guess. Not so. You get the coordinate with blender, and put it in the units.csv
Blackbeard wrote: 5. do some testing of the unit in-game
The page says that the info is obsolete and being reworked, yet the info looks just the same as my save games... ?
Because there's an easier way. You edit data/missions/modelview.mission to use your ship instead of the llama, and invoke VS with that mission as argument: vegastrike modelview.mission. Voie-lá
Blackbeard wrote: 6. making the ship buyable
I don't understand part 2 of this. At all.
I think it amounts to editing the master parts list file to give your ship a price and category, and then, if you added it to a new category, you'd have to make that category part of the traded items for each base type. Because units.csv contains a column which specifies which kind of stuff a base will trade, you have to include your ship's category or it won't be traded anywhere. This step you can skip if your ship is placed on an already-traded category.
Blackbeard wrote: 7. giving the ship to npc
Need to do more digging on this one, looks relatively intuitive.
Very simply done, editing faction_ships.py, adding your ship's name to the appropriate tables (though it's a python script, you'll see quite prominent data tables, just follow the format and you'll do fine).
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:
Blackbeard wrote: 6. making the ship buyable
I don't understand part 2 of this. At all.
I think it amounts to editing the master parts list file.
I have messed a bit with upgrades, but it works about the same as ships. Enter your data into MPL as klauss says, and works well enough if you give it a catagory name that exists. If you choose to place it in a new catagory, you need to edit units.csv again and add that catagory to cargo imports.
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

klauss wrote:I think it amounts to editing the master parts list file to give your ship a price and category, and then, if you added it to a new category, you'd have to make that category part of the traded items for each base type. Because units.csv contains a column which specifies which kind of stuff a base will trade, you have to include your ship's category or it won't be traded anywhere. This step you can skip if your ship is placed on an already-traded category.
So, if I use an already existing category, part two becomes irrelevant? :D


And now for something completely different...

My latest creation! I've put the work on the fighter on hold until inspiration strikes again...

Posted them here so you could see all your wondrous advice is not in vain. :D

This is a multi-role corvette, with a slightly greater focus on anti-capital operations. About the same size as a Thales, or slightly larger, but infinitely more capable. :shock:

The top image shows the untextured model as it currently stands, the bottom is the result of some uv-mapping tests.
It is not finished yet, I want to add some bits and pieces to it like antennas, scaffolding?, etc, to give an idea of scale.
Then of course there is the proper texture to add, the positions for the turrets, the main gun/beam emplacements, torpedo/capship missile tubes, and last but not least the positions for the engine exhausts.

Hope you like. :)
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Ok, another problem, this time pretty much blender-centred. :( When uv_mapping in blender, there is an option to edit the image in an external editor. To use this you have to point Blender to an executable, in my case, the Gimp. This isn't a problem, but what is is the fact that when I click the option, the Gimp starts but doesn't open the image, instead it gives an error message to do with being unable to access ./blender. I have looked and there is no such folder anywhere, nor can I find where Gimp should be looking, and even if I did, I don't know how to point it in that direction.

If someone familiar with the ins and outs of blender could reply, please do. :)
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Re: Questions about modeling, textures, and sizes of ships.

Post by Blackbeard »

Ok, this is concept number two for my new fighter. :)

I stopped work on the first one and adapted some of it into the second. The reasons were chiefly that I was not happy with the cockpit and the wings, the latter have been replaced by wing stubs. The cockpit I never was very happy with, and it's replacement is hardly an improvement either.
Fighter Concept2.png
As you can see, the fuselage is barely anything worth speaking of. :(

Please provide feedback. Thank you.
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