Vigilance Capship Help and Discussion

[eracc]

Now that I have the credits, I bought a Vigilance in my new game. I have decided to try to fly it and see how it works for me as a high-end, armed freighter.

I have added several "shady mechanic" upgrades to get better turning and forward/reverse acceleration. Apparently nothing can be done to affect orthogonal acceleration ... whatever that is. (Is this the inertia that keeps the ship moving at an angle if turning while under power?)

Where does one find reloads for the Vigilance CapIFF missiles? I have not seen these anywhere yet. So, I am afraid to use them all up on my Vigilance.

What is with mining bases still having such tiny dock points? I started to dock my Vigilance at a mining base and just bounced off, thereby pissing off the base in the process. I had to spam nice talk to get them to stop firing at me. Is it even possible for players to dock large ships at a mining base? Am I doing it wrong? Does the ship need a specific orientation in relation to the mining base to dock? I would think a MINING base would have LARGE docks for LARGE ore carriers. Something the size of the large dock point on a Commerce Center would make sense. Maybe that can be fixed in a new SVN patch soon?

I'll add more as I fly the ship more. So far I have only flown it from a Commerce Center to a Mining Base and back to the Commerce Center when I failed to dock at the mine.

Added later on 2011/10/30: Okay, I managed to dock at a fighter base by being v-e-r-y careful and using the large dock on the middle. But then when I tried to launch my Vigilance it apparently launched too close to the base and ... BLEW UP! That kinda sucks. So, I cannot dock at a mine at all. I can dock at a fighter base but cannot relaunch ... unless I spend $50k to have a ship carted to my current sector and switch ships then switch back while in the base. Then my Vigilance launches farther out. Why is launching farther out not the default?

For a game with trading as one of the playing modes, VS is not very trader friendly for traders with large ships.

[eracc]

I shot one of the Vigilance torpedo tubes dry. The Vigilance comes loaded with 100 torpedoes, 50 per tube. I was able to buy ... ONE. That is messed up. It is very misleading to load it up with 50 per tube at purchase when we can only reload with ONE FREAKING TORPEDO!

I am thinking that was a design error. If I knew how to fix it myself, I would make the Vigilance be able to reload back to 50 torpedoes per tube and submit a patch. But I do not know how to do that.

[TBeholder]

I am thinking that was a design error. If I knew how to fix it myself, I would make the Vigilance be able to reload back to 50 torpedoes per tube and submit a patch. But I do not know how to do that.

Volumes of mounts in units.csv are supposed to be equal (ammo.volume x ammo.count) on the fully armed ship.
If mount volume isn't set at all (as in this case, obviously), this mount defaults to volume=0 and receives maximum 1 unit of any compatible ammo. Vigilance is a small capship, and as such is semi-experimental as PC ship already, so it's not a big surprise.
With gun mounts it's less important, since a gun itself can define maximum ammo. This gets really fixed only gradually, so if you'll propose diff fixing a few ships, devs may apply it.

[pheonixstorm]

One the same subject, different weapon.. The Ion Burster ammo on hardpoints 1 & 2 on the llama can carry 30k rounds while hardpoints 3& 4 can only carry 10k. Any idea on that one TB?

[TBeholder]

One the same subject, different weapon.. The Ion Burster ammo on hardpoints 1 & 2 on the llama can carry 30k rounds while hardpoints 3& 4 can only carry 10k. Any idea on that one TB?

Well, duh. Volume's 15 and 3 respectively (per 0.0005, so there's 10000 from the gun instead of 6000 on the second pair) for Llama.begin - not that something's wrong with it, but we also have 10 and 5 for Llama.stock and not set at all for other variants.

And while IMO it's okay if "milspec" got more mag space than a basic hull, on Dostoevsky the torpedo mount has 1, 32, 80 and 90 for different variants, sometimes with numbers of nonexistent ammo still there. And so on and on.

[eracc]

Guys, the subject is "Vigilance Capship Help and Discussion". Let's please not digress into other weapons and ships here.

TBeholder, I looked at units.csv with LibreOffice Calc. Uhm, brother, I have NO CLUE how to edit this properly. Please provide a link to detailed information about what one does to change items in units.csv. I am sure any random attempts I make to "just figure it out" will need much more time than I have available. So far a quick search gives me lots of people mentioning units.csv, but no hits on how to edit the values on the units properly.

[eracc]

Bah! Right after I posted that I found it on the wiki: http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... _units.csv

Silly me. I had been searching the forum. Never mind.

Added later: Just editing units.csv and the saved Vigilance.csv file to fix the mounts on the Vigilance did not do it. I suppose I need to recompile for testing after editing units.csv, so I am recompiling now. It does not mention this on the page where one learns how to edit the file, so I am just guessing that is the problem.

Even later: No! Recompiling did not fix it either. How the HECK does one make this stick?

[eracc]

Okay, I edited Vigilance.csv from my saved game and loaded up the Torpedo racks. I started with that saved game and saved a new "Test" game and looked at the Vigilance.csv in that. It has the change I made that I thought would fix the problem based on your suggestion TBeholder. But I sold one Torpedo and it still will not let me buy back a Torpedo to get back to 50. What am I missing?

I will try to attach the file here. Nope, I get "The extension csv is not allowed." Let's try a .zip ... ah, that appeared to work. Now let me do the same with my edited units.csv so you guys can tell me what I did wrong. Uhm, okay, that did not work. My post went to blank with no attachments. Good thing browsers have a back button. So I'll just put the files up on my site:

http://www.eracc.com/other/vs_files/units.csv.zip
http://www.eracc.com/other/vs_files/Vigilance.csv.zip

[TBeholder]

I will try to attach the file here. Nope, I get "The extension csv is not allowed."

But what's the point of attaching the whole file? Comma Separated Values is a plain text format. So it's easier to simply insert the modified line as text. Even right from Libreoffice's Calc to clipboard, it would copy with <tab> instead of comma, but otherwise the same.
For more complex modifications, the most convenient way is diff (which is also plain text) between the original in SVN base and edited file in your working copy. Or even multi-file diff, for that matter. BTW, SVN Workbench does diff for any file or directory vs either base or head in one click from menu or context menu.

As to what's wrong, see above and in that link: you need to look up ammo volume and set the mount volume, and it's not the same as ammo count. One CapIff takes 40 m^3, Torpedo 100, and how much did you set?

[eracc]

Bleh! I am not editing this under my account that uses the web and keeps these browsers open to my forum accounts. It is my game account running in a separate X session. So just copying and pasting is not feasible. I had to place a copy of the file on my file server so I could access it from here. You could have just looked at the files in the URLs I posted already and just let me know what I did wrong. These little "run arounds" like this are not productive ... and is part of the reason so many end users will end up avoiding trying to help developers of FOSS. Me? I'm tenacious (up to a point) and will go ahead and try to figure out what in the world you want to see.

If you, any of you, not just TB, want to see something in a specific manner, then give details of how you want it done before I waste more time trying to help with VS data files. It is not like I need to work on VS to help you get it to work correctly. It is just a game. For that matter, TB, how about just correcting the Vigilance line(s) in units.csv yourself and posting the incorrect line along with the corrected line. We non-developers could maybe then see how to help fix these problems without needing to spend so much time trying to just figure out what you want.

I did look at the page http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... _units.csv and saw the section titled mounts:

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Mounts ({type(string);ammo(int);volume(meters);SIZE(string);x(meters);y(meters);z(meters);xyscale(meters);zscale(meters);forex(meters);forey(meters);forez(meters);upx(meters);upy(meters);upz(meters);functionality(percentage);maxfunctionality(percentage)}) 
 type - Type of weapon (see weapon_list.xml in the data directory) 
 ammo - how much ammo the gun holds (only needed for ammo needing weapons e.g. missiles,torpedos,... 
 volume - 
 SIZE - size class(es)/type(s) and if they are capable of autotracking. 
 x, y, z - location of weapon 
 xyscale, zscale - 
 forex, forey, forez - (optional) Forward vector of mount (assume 0,0,1) 
 upx, upy, upz - (optional) Up vector of mount (assume 0,1,0) 
 Example: {;;;Light Medium;1.01200;-6.80000e-2;3.40800;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;;Light Medium;-0.964000;-6.80000e-2;3.40800;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;;Light;0.380000;0.176000;1.07600;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;;Light;-0.336000;0.176000;1.07600;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;0;48;light-missile medium-missile special-missile;0;0;0;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;0;48;light-missile medium-missile special-missile;0;0;0;;;;;;;;;1;1}

Here is the edit I made within the units.csv file for the Vigilance line:

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{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{torpedo;50;50;;0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{torpedo;50;50;;-0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}

Here is the same portion from the original units.csv:

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{capiff;25;;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{torpedo;50;;;0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{torpedo;50;;;-0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}

I have no idea if I did it correctly. I do not even know if this is what you wanted to see. That is why I wanted someone with a clue to look at the files. Not just the part I edited. I'll do a diff once I know what the heck I am doing and can get this working on my system. Or I can just avoid wasting my time with the hamster "run around" and get back to work making money. My wife would prefer that anyway.

[eracc]

For example, I have absolutely NO IDEA what you mean here:

... One CapIff takes 40 m[sup]3[/sup], Torpedo 100, ...

I am guessing that the "sup, /sup" is supposed to be superscript. But I do not even know that for certain.

Details, my friend. I need details. I am not an insider that can just see that and say, "Oh yeah! I see the problem!" That information you provided may as well be in Mandarin Chinese as that would make just as much sense to me since I do not understand Mandarin Chinese either.

[pheonixstorm]

yeah this is one area of the game that could have used some better explanation or a better design. I am also waiting patiently for an answer. In the meantime.. are there any other ammo types that you have found with this same problem? Would be nice to have for when we rebalance things or look for bugs to squash.

[TBeholder]

You could have just looked at the files in the URLs I posted already and just let me know what I did wrong.

Why do you think there was the grin smiley?
But if you need it just pointed at...

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{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{capiff;25;25;;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{torpedo;50;50;;0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{torpedo;50;50;;-0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}

[...]
I have no idea if I did it correctly. I do not even know if this is what you wanted to see.

It's too simple to be ambiguous. You only need to read what the column header you quoted tells about format to see the problem.
The second field is ammo number (numerical), the third is volume (in meters) - yes, should be meters^3, but it's not just numerical anyway. Thus, they aren't directly comparable - not the number but volume of ammo should fit in the volume of a mount.
So, Name=torpedo, Number=50, Volume=omitted=0. Which, again, means that a mount receives only 1 unit of any compatible ammo. That is, happens exactly this bug. You changed it to 50.
As i wrote (and gave an example), you need calculated total, and ammo volume is in data/weapon_list.xml. One torpedo, as you can see there and as i posted to make such digging unnecessary, has volume=100.
So yeah, "50;50" wasn't enough even for one. To stuff 50 of them in one mount (as on Vigilance.stock) you need mount volume of 50*100=5000 and 25*40=1000 for each 25x capiff mount.

[eracc]

Heh, TBeholder, you should know that nothing is ever so simple that all humans will be able to understand it. Your very clear explanation above finally got through to me. Thank you.

For the record, knowing exactly where to look to find a clear explanation for the information I needed to know would have helped. Unfortunately, I did not know, or maybe understand, where I needed to look to get that calculation. It is highly probable I saw it elsewhere but never connected it to this specific problem until you pointed it out. When I saw your explanation above I had that, "Ah HA!" moment. I can be a bit dense at times.

[pheonixstorm]

In many aspects of vegastrike being dense is a very good thing Makes the information that should be in the wiki come to light so that it CAN be added to the wiki.

[eracc]

Okay, after dinking around with units.csv and my saved Vigilance.csv I think the default military Vigilance should come with these mounts:

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{;;150;light-missile medium-missile;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;150;light-missile medium-missile;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;150;light-missile medium-missile;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;150;light-missile medium-missile;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;1020;medium-missile;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;1020;medium-missile;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;1020;medium-missile;1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{;;1020;medium-missile;-1.645490;-0.231993;-5;;;;;;;;;1;1}{Torpedo;50;5000;;0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{Torpedo;50;5000;;-0.64;2.5;3;;;;;;;;;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.507689;-0.052456;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}{RelativisticParticleBeam;;;capship-light autotracking;-2.206848;-0.882219;-3.449466;;;0;0;1;-0;1;0;1;1}

That shows the role of the Vigilance as a light Capital Ship. It can load some serious hurt in its missile tubes with this setup. Perhaps the Torpedo tubes should be empty as well.

My reasoning for this today is the CapIFF missiles are tragically broken. If one sells CapIFF missiles it sells ALL OF THEM, but only ONE is in the inventory of the Planet, etc. where it was sold. Plus there is no place in the game that stocks these missiles for sale as far as I have been able to determine. Once the CapIFF missiles are fixed and show up for purchase somewhere, then a military upgrade mod of the Vigilance from some faction would come with the CapIFF mounts. But I think there should only be four CapIFF mounts and four Medium Missile mounts on the military upgrade version. Not eight CapIFF mounts.

What do you folks think?

[TBeholder]

That shows the role of the Vigilance as a light Capital Ship. It can load some serious hurt in its missile tubes with this setup.

Not quite capiff, though.

Perhaps the Torpedo tubes should be empty as well.

The current convention is that *.blank, *.stock and *.*spec should be empty and others (NPC ships) should be fully loaded. Mixing isn't a good idea.
Vigilance was half-edited.

My reasoning for this today is the CapIFF missiles are tragically broken. If one sells CapIFF missiles it sells ALL OF THEM, but only ONE is in the inventory of the Planet, etc. where it was sold. Plus there is no place in the game that stocks these missiles for sale as far as I have been able to determine. Once the CapIFF missiles are fixed and show up for purchase somewhere,

It's just not written as a proper upgrade. "cap_iff__upgrades" should be removed as a pointless duplicate once there's "capiff_ammo__upgrades" right under it, and one line in masterparts will make it a normal saleable/purchaseable missile.

That's not a problem, a problem is that currently CapIFF is sort of useless anyway.

But I think there should only be four CapIFF mounts and four Medium Missile mounts on the military upgrade version. Not eight CapIFF mounts.

Why not? It will help the ship to deal with fighters and bombers, - it already got turrets, but that's not quite an adequate defence and most big targets can carry interceptors. 4 light-capship-missile mounts (increase volume) with CapIFF, others 4 light-missile/medium-missile (decrease volume) filled with medium FF.

[eracc]

What do you folks suggest I do to try to get Vigilance fixed for use in the game? I am editing the Vigilance line, not Vigilance.blank, in the units.csv file. Should I then add in some missiles for the Vigilance line? Is that line what is used for NPC? Should I also edit the Vigilance.blank and make that available somewhere? How many light and/or medium missiles should it be able to load in each missile bay?

How do you suggest I fix the CapIFF missiles? IMO looking at what TB said the CapIFF missiles are less useful than regular light or medium missiles. If they are supposed to be used for a light capital ship, I think they should be more powerful and more durable than light / medium missiles, but less powerful than Torpedo. How do I fix that? (Give details please. )

If the NPC use Vigilance, not Vigilance.blank, then I suppose that needs to stay with the CapIFF missiles for NPC / military. The Vigilance.blank should be for non-military / armed freighter use with my suggestion for removing or limiting CapIFF missiles. I could make them match as far as missile bays go and just make the .blank version have empty tubes requiring one to purchase missiles / torpedoes.

Where does one edit to make items appear for purchase on planets, bases, etcetera? Is that also in units.csv? (Again, details please. )

Finally, am I going to be hurting someone's feelings by making changes to the Vigilance? Whoever introduced the ship may want to help with the repairs to get a working ship.

[pheonixstorm]

Whoever added the ship in the first place probably isn't around much anymore.

If you have time why not look at all the missile types and see what kind of balancing act you can do.

[TBeholder]

What do you folks suggest I do to try to get Vigilance fixed for use in the game? I am editing the Vigilance line, not Vigilance.blank, in the units.csv file.
Should I then add in some missiles for the Vigilance line? Is that line what is used for NPC? Should I also edit the Vigilance.blank and make that available somewhere? How many light and/or medium missiles should it be able to load in each missile bay?

See above - usually there's 2 basic variants. Half-empty hulls "*.stock" and "*.*spec" for sale and empty "*.blank" for reference have empty mounts - and everything else are NPC ships with full mounts.
As to Vigilance itself... I propose for now to

1. clean up mounts,
2. set proper volume (";;5000;heavy-missile;" / ";;1000;light-capship-missile;"), NPC ("torpedo;50;5000;heavy-missile;" / "CapIFF;25;1000;light-capship-missile;") and maybe
3. change 4 of 8 CapIFF mounts to defence/covering medium missiles, maybe with about half of their volume given to remaining light-capship-missile mounts, thus instead of 8x CapIFF, 4x of each
   ";;1600;light-capship-missile;" and ";;360;light-missile medium-missile;", NPC "CapIff;40;1600;light-capship-missile;" and "friendorfoe;30;360;light-missile medium-missile;"

120x FF is a truckload of pain already.
CapIFF remains to be fixed, but "what exactly it should do in the first place" is a concept thing - VS universe devs have to tell what it supposed to be, so let's put proposals in a place more clearly visible to them.

How do you suggest I fix the CapIFF missiles?

That's a separate issue. So let's carry this part into separate CapIFF balance thread.

Where does one edit to make items appear for purchase on planets, bases, etcetera? Is that also in units.csv? (Again, details please. )

Cargo categories for sale vs. same for goods in master_part_list.csv, Vigilance is set to "starships/Confed/Milspec", which is okay for now, but the name perhaps should be changed to "Vigilance.stock" as with other ships, instead of the full NPC kit.

[eracc]

I've gotten busy with work lately, so have not had a chance to get back to this. I hope to have more time this coming weekend.

[Turbo]

You'll also need to update the "cargo" property in units.csv, for the bases that you want to sell that type of ammunition. I have done this, with some success, but it was a while ago and I'm at work now. So let me look at the wiki a bit...

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Cargo_Import ({Cat(string);price(percentage);pricestddev(percentage);quant(percentage);quantstddev(percentage)}) Used by bases, etc. for generating the cargo available for purchase. 
Cat - A category to use from Master Part List eg Natural_Products/Natural_Resources" 
price - price scale (multiplied by price in list) 
pricestddev - price scale variation (above adjusted by this) 
quant - quantity of this sort of cargo 
quantstddev - quantity variation  

OK...you'll want to add an entry with the weapon type, using the names and categories from Master Parts List, with quantity and deviation numbers high enough that the base will (at game start anyway) have 100+ torps for sale. Look at the entries for other cargo types which the base already carries in adequate quantities, and copy those numbers to a new entry for the ammo types you want to be available. For example, it makes sense to me that a StarFortress should carry torpedoes.