Gravity

[Alterscape]

Klauss, CoffeeBot, and I got into a fairly spirited discussion of the effect of newtonian physics on how ships handle in the game, which lead to my musings about gravity and gameplay.

My first thought was "hmm, newtonian physics; we need gravity!"

But, then I realized, "No, we don't. The thrusters VS ships use are so ridiculously powerful that gravity would just be a distraction -- you accomodate for it, change your trajectory to thrust against it, and so forth, but since you aren't limited by fuel, and your engines can exert substantially more force than gravity, it'd really be nothing more than an annoyance."

There's no question in my mind that VegaStrike will never be ANYTHING like a sim like Orbiter, because of unlimited fuel and Big Freakin' Engines, and that's a good thing. In something like Orbiter, just getting from a planet's surface to orbit is a 15+ minute proposition involving lots of careful planning.

In VegaStrike, you've got Big Freaking Engines, so you can just point and go.

Hmm.

One thought: Big Freaking Engines = Big Freaking Accelerations = Red Out/Black Outs?

Simulating these realistically would take a LOT of the fun out of dogfighting, but also make things more strategic (eg: I'll probably black out if I turn that tightly, do I trust my enemy to wind up where I want him while I can't see him?). Just a thought.

I'm not really sure if any of this warrants serious debate, but I thought I'd start a new thread so the "missiles" thread could get back On Topic.

Cheers,
Ryan

[Ryder P. Moses]

Simulating these realistically would take a LOT of the fun out of dogfighting

And there you have it right there. It's a game, when realism... hell, when anything conflicts with the raw fun factor, it don't belong.

I could imagine this providing an interesting diversion and a good strategy puzzle for, oh, the first five times you get in a dogfight. The next five hundred times... eugh. Even the flight sims I've played with it (where it's been pretty hard to get anyway) left it as an option that was by default off.

Sides, VS explains how you're not a thin paste on the back cockpit wall by invoking intertics handwavium. Which basically means you're not accelerating for any definition of the word that applies to the ship itself, as opposed to the ship's relative posiiton in the Universe.


Gravity, though, could be kinda nice, executed properly. Crank that sucker up around gas giants, that'd make for some crazy dogfighting, and make takeoffs and landings a lot more interesting than they are now too. It'd be a definite enhancement to have planetary takeoff involve more player participation than sitting around waiting for SPEC to engage (and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, 'cos if you just crank up the time compression next thing you know you'll be at the other end of the Milky Way). Some gravity, and maybe some simulated turbulence on certain planets... yeah, that'd be badass, finally a good use for Newtonian physics.

I remember previous games that tried it having some severe AI conflicts in gravity wells, though, so it might be unworkable. And it might just be that the crazy Serenity takeoffs are still too fresh in my mind.

[CubOfJudahsLion]

IIRC, there's inertial compensation mechanisms built into the ships themselves as a standard, and it is reasonable to expected 33rd century to provide better protection for the body.

[loki1950]

would not each of the races have different G tolorance especially the Rhaan and maybe the Area would have higher tolorance fron there biology. just strirring the spoon

Enjoy the Choice

[CoffeeBot]

@loki: Dang. True enough. If one race had a higher tolerance, then their ships could definitely be capable of a lot more maneuvering. Of course, as soon as a human tried to fly one, they'd be hurting in a bad way.

Which of course brings up another question: How do humans fly Rlaan and Aera craft without refitting the cockpits?

[CubOfJudahsLion]

Um... there is no spoon.

This is also guesswork and assumption: if we're extrapolating Earth life to create alien races (the Aera and Rlaan both have been depicted as having respiratory systems, skin, articulated appendages, etc.), I would presume that they would not be invulnerable to extra gees and kilopascals. Assuming they ARE mortal, they'd need protection against these.

IIRC, most technologies in the VS universe have found their ways into the hands of the other races.

[loki1950]

Yeah it is a kicker but the whole concept can't be dumped the retro fit whould probably be an extra inertial-comp that takes up upgrade space so that it is not a free tranfer. that can be the explantion anyway

Enjoy the Choice

[CubOfJudahsLion]

It's also safe to assume that, if you sell ships the way they're sold in most locations in the VS universe, your clients can be of any race. In the case, a feasible inertial compensation system would need to be of flexible design that can be adjusted for any particular occupant.

[CoffeeBot]

I'm not even talking about what they breathe or how much G-Force they can withstand. The Aera are centaur-like, and the Rlaan are strangely shaped "worms" (best word to describe them, though it's not entirely fitting). Physically, a human wouldn't "fit" in their cockpits. Sure, we could enter them easily, but piloting is a different thing entirely. The position of the controls, displays, everything would be optimized for their physiology, which are drastically different from our own.

[Ryder P. Moses]

Modular cockpits. Anyone selling on a commercial market has to be willing to accomodate the needs of a broad variety of customers; this might also explain why alien craft tend to be bloody expensive compared to Human stuffs. Hell, look at what we've got now for crippled people; there's a huge variety of specialized equipment, and while we haven't yet really solved the problem of getting blind people to drive safely we've basically done everything short of it.

And, of course, it'd help that the VS aliens are all somewhat larger and of less, er... compact bodyforms than humans. Lots of extra space for interfacing devices.


Nobody else likes the gravity thing? Aww, I thought that'd be badass.

[CubOfJudahsLion]

I was thinking much more along the lines of surviving accelerations and all that, not really considering the ergonomical.

Good question, yeah

I'd like to think that the cockpit configures itself for its occupant, accomodating for visual/aural perception ranges or their equivalents, motility/degrees of freedom, etc., since you could be, say, an Andolian flying with a Klk'k , and it would be convenient if the ship allowed either one to take the wheel. Doesn't sound very plausible, though.

Personally, I would find it more believable that most models came with different cockpit options, and that either you choose one with the right seat/control set options, or that the cockpit is correctly assembled for you when you buy the ship.

The short answer is "I'd like to know too"

[klauss]

...while we haven't yet really solved the problem of getting blind people to drive safely we've basically done everything short of it.

Yes... even made them see. (Braille dots sent to their visual cortex - really, it has been done).

And, of course, it'd help that the VS aliens are all somewhat larger and of less, er... compact bodyforms than humans. Lots of extra space for interfacing devices.

Nobody else likes the gravity thing? Aww, I thought that'd be badass.

I don't care. I'll add gravity and all... at least I'll love it. But I'm pretty sure when it's ready, everybody else will love it too.

[CoffeeBot]

I'd like to think that the cockpit configures itself for its occupant, accomodating for visual/aural perception ranges or their equivalents, motility/degrees of freedom, etc., since you could be, say, an Andolian flying with a Klk'k , and it would be convenient if the ship allowed either one to take the wheel. Doesn't sound very plausible, though.

That all depends. When I read this comment, I immediately thought of Flight of the Navigator. Any child of the 80s will remember this flick. When the kid sat in the navigator's chair, the ship adjusted it to his body size and shape, and implied it did it frequently for all of it's guests. So, as long as our aliens all fall within similar body sizes, there's no reason the cockpit couldn't accomodate. At least, this is definitely possible in larger multi-person ships. Starfighters would probably have to have specialized modular cockpits that are installed (or pre-installed, if it's popular enough with a specific species) at the time of purchase (similar to customizing your car at the dealership, today).

This makes me wonder, though. So much of the things we see in VS are human-oriented, and humanity is sort of the new kid on the block. Who's making these ships? And why the hell is anyone allowed to pilot an Aera craft if they're not Aeran? If we ever get a blackmarket going, that's the only place they should be available for purchase -- and then you get attacked on sight if you're inside of any non-Aera territory.

[Ryder P. Moses]

That last bit could be kinda cool, especially when the complement is considered- ships as fake IDs? You wanna sneak into Aera territory unhindered, you buy an Aera fighter. You wanna get through an ISO blockade? Black-market ISO ship. Shot up a few Confeds and want a clean record quick? Go to your nearest grey-market station and get a ship with falsified registration (for a fair markup over the legit version). Makes it possible to play the pirate game without getting slaughtered almost instantly, but makes it expensive enough that you probably don't want to go around shooting up transports with friends in high places unless you really mean it.

[CubOfJudahsLion]

When I read this comment, I immediately thought of Flight of the Navigator

Heh, remember that one.

When the kid sat in the navigator's chair, the ship adjusted it to his body size and shape, and implied it did it frequently for all of it's guests. So, as long as our aliens all fall within similar body sizes, there's no reason the cockpit couldn't accomodate. At least, this is definitely possible in larger multi-person ships. Starfighters would probably have to have specialized modular cockpits that are installed (or pre-installed, if it's popular enough with a specific species) at the time of purchase (similar to customizing your car at the dealership, today).

Those were basically my two options. For the first one, we'd have to find a way to make the seat take a shape that accomodates all of these: a giant slug, a horse, a reverse-jointed kangaroo and a man (and who knows what else), making all of them reasonably comfortable. Then we need to present information to at least four different types of visual systems and figure out equivalents for non-vidents, variations including eye count and electromagnetic spectrum. Finally, we need to make all controls adjustable for human hands, double-thumbed hands, um, pseudopoda?, and hands that look like a gecko's front legs.

Well, you know, it sounds like something adjustable panels, a large enough cockpit, a soft-touch universalized control pad, some hidraulics and a few inflatable bags can do. Maybe it ain't that far-fetched after all

And why the hell is anyone allowed to pilot an Aera craft if they're not Aeran? If we ever get a blackmarket going, that's the only place they should be available for purchase -- and then you get attacked on sight if you're inside of any non-Aera territory.

Been wondering about that one too.

[loki1950]

they need the cash just like you do to pay for the war effort

[jackS]

A lot of these sales don't make any sense (politically), but we lack mechanisms for controlling the sale of items at all levels (Anti-matter warhead? Sure, you can buy one! They're right between the non-fat milk and the fuzzy dice) so that shouldn't really be surprising - it's a missing-features-in-the-engine issue.

A lot of these sales don't make much sense (practically) as implemented, but modules for various species could be purchase options, if we were to make the game "player species aware" (Humans and Klk'k are the only primary sapient species (here I'm ignoring SuSims) with even roughly similar morphology, and even they would need some fairly adaptable leg supports to allow both to operate the same vehicle, so .. yeah, you'd want distinct cockpit modules for everyone else, not to mention the mechanists, with their own cockpits, or the Rlaan-Briin similarly with their own cockpits) but... see first point - until that's implemented, minimal impetus to do the above.

[CoffeeBot]

..what he said...

I so wish I had the time to learn enough to help with programming. But then again, a lot of my time is wasted with learning 3d modelling...

How much of this stuff is in python, and how much is in C?

[Spaceman Spliff]

I'm just of the opinion that if it adds any annoyance to routine flying, then no it shouldn't be in. For one, the technology should be there so a ship in proper order shouldn't be disturbed by it.

But it would be cool to have my ship get all shot to hell, with static HUD and reactor emergency light blinking, starting to drift toward that planet below.

So yeah, I think it would be a good idea, but it shouldn't add any hassle to normal flight.

[Ryder P. Moses]

Well, how often do you routinely fly close enough to a planet that SPEC doesn't work, if you're not planning to land on it? That's the range I was talking about.

[Spaceman Spliff]

Well, how often do you routinely fly close enough to a planet that SPEC doesn't work, if you're not planning to land on it? That's the range I was talking about.

Never. But would you end up drifting toward like asteroids, or even facility structures, etc? I'm just saying, I don't want any more complications to my routine flights, is all.

[Ryder P. Moses]

Asteroids and stations have a nonsignificant gravity even in real life.

[Kerrysl]

I think that planets are the only critical objects in the VS universe that need a gravity component. Jumps, bases, spacecraft, asteroids, don't need it. Sun's percieved gravity on the other hand already affects SPEC out to a fair radius, and doesn't probably need any change.

At planets, what is needed, is the impact of rotational forces, being acquired by spacecraft as they get closer to the planet. That is at some point, we progress from being stationery in space, looking at a rotating planet, to being geo-stationery, looking at a stationery planet, and a rotating universe.

I would think that during the transition, you would have be seeing two effects. One the planetary rotation would be decreasing, and two the universe rotation would be increasing. I don't know how that would be coded, but it is what we need for a more realistic orbital insertion to a planet.

At high altitudes, you would be in a moving orbit around the planet, seeing it rotate below you, with also some universal rotation as well. At lower altitudes you get to geo-stationery orbit, which is the level where docking ports need to be. Below that you get orbital decay, were you begin to fall to either a crash landing, or an off base landing, that requires a transportation cost, to a launching pad (planetary base).

How AI responds to planetary gravitational effects is up to what they are programmed to do. For instance a pirate could sit just above the geo-stationary level, with some free (no engine required) movement around a planet, constantly scanning for objects below in the geo plane as they come into range. In attack they would have the advantage of altitude and velocity.

[Ryder P. Moses]

Why stick the inherited planetary rotation in at all, though? That's not how gravity works, there is no magical force that sucks you into a stable position in relation to a rotating object, and the objective is to give the player something to do, not to get the player totally lost by dragging his ship in random directions for no real reason. Up-down is nice and simple- people understand that, that's why you don't routinely see people walking off the tops of tall buildings. Down-and-sideways-at-some-random-crazy-angle is liable to be frustrating, particularly if you're trying to navigate towards something that's not the planet.


That's something about the suns, though, I hadn't thought of them. Could work either way, really. I think with a nice heavy gravity sink, they could be pretty interesting, too. Stars just aren't menacing enough if they're not threatening to suck you in and burn you up. Plus, that way we can slingshot around them and travel back to the eighties.

[CoffeeBot]

Plus, that way we can slingshot around them and travel back to the eighties.

Just remember where you parked.