Digging on Asteroids

Major · Post by **Major** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:48 am

While thinking about possibilities of gathering resources i remembered an old game i played on my AMIGA 500: Oil Imperium.
There was a part where you had to control a drill head. You had to keep the drill head that moved away from the middle in various directions in the middle of the scanner screen with your joystick. The harder the ground the more the drill head moved away from the middle. If the head moved too far away from middle it broke and you had to buy a new one. Moreover there were different layers in the ground.

Adapted to VS:
In Space there could be bigger asteroids where you can dock. When you have bought some drill heads you could drill and get some resources.
Variables that influence the amount of resources you get could be the amount of tectonic activities and the hardness of the material.
If the textonic activities are stronger, the drill head is harder to control.
If the material is harder it takes longer to reach the resources.

Moreover there could be analyzers to buy that tell you information about the asteroidÂ´s
- type of resources
- amount of textonic activities
- hardness of the asteroidÂ´s material

What do you think of implementing something like this in VS?
Is a "small arcade game" something fresh for VS or is it too far away from a space simulation?

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:22 pm

Fascinating. That sounds like a fun idea to implement. However, as of this time you can't own space stations and stufff like that. Also, drilling for ore in the Llama would be kind of goofy. If you could own and operate a specialized mining ship, that would be cool. But, I don't think they should have capabilities to fly much farther from the asteroid you're currently mining. I.e., you drill, collect ore, and then make short trips to some drop-off point on the same asteroid or in the belt. If you want to go long distances, then you'll have to be carried in a transport ship (kind of like how bull dozers are loaded onto a semi tractor trailer and then moved from site to site).
Having a big semi-stationary drill like in the game you played would be even cooler.

Major · Post by **Major** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:34 pm

A specialised mining ship is a good idea.
But i think that you should be able to buy a small add-on for drilling for your ship so that you can defend yourself from Pirates or other hostiles.

When you have some money you can buy a specialised ship with a better drilling technology and hire some wingmen that protect you.

Major · Post by **Major** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:53 pm

I was writing down some detailed thoughts about mining with some balancing issues and some other (easier to implement) ideas of mining resources:
http://netzwelt.gaming-hut.de/vega/mining_concept.pdf

suggestions are welcomed

Silverain · Post by **Silverain** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:00 am

I believe the Elite series had mining?

Something along the lines of carrying a mobile mining base in your cargo hold (so only BIG ships can mine!). You landed at a mining location (VS dock to a mining asteroid?), pressed a 'mining' button (VS sell mining base (MMB)). Over a period of time the base will fill with ore. Redock with asteroid, and buy ore at zero cost. Buy MMB back to pick it back up and cart elsewhere, or leave where it is to continue mining.

By having an open mine like this, unless you are there to protect it, you could have pirate problems. But you can fly off and do whatever, returning later to pickup your full load of ore.

Maybe when targetting and docking with asteroid, scanning gives an indication of the amount of ore that can be extracted?

When a ship is loading from the MMB it is defenceless (no shields) etc.

Idea: you could have your Clydesdale parked in orbit awaiting its load of ore, and sends out its wingmen cargo ships for defence while it is defenceless uploading the ore!

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:31 am

@Silverrain That sounds excellent! Are you saying that the Elite series implemented mining in the way that you described?

You'd need a special mining radar. I think asteroids should be composed of, in part, of all four types of asteroids.

Silverain · Post by **Silverain** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:28 am

Shark wrote:@Silverain That sounds excellent! Are you saying that the Elite series implemented mining in the way that you described?

You'd need a special mining radar. I think asteroids should be composed of, in part, of all four types of asteroids.

Refer http://www.eliteclub.co.uk/download and DL the manual. There's a section in there about mining.

Duality · Post by **Duality** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:41 am

Actually, there could also be non-combat guns mounted on a ship that are actually mining beams that have a purpose of mining roids.

Fact:
Mining beams have very short range.
They do little damage.
When an astroid is touched by the beam, the raw ore is placed into the ships cargo.

Any thoughts on this?

Silverain · Post by **Silverain** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:36 am

Duality wrote:Actually, there could also be non-combat guns mounted on a ship that are actually mining beams that have a purpose of mining roids.

Fact:
Mining beams have very short range.
They do little damage.
When an astroid is touched by the beam, the raw ore is placed into the ships cargo.

Any thoughts on this?

Very Simplified.

Do we want to be able to blow apart asteroids and the ore 'appears' in our cargo bay? Easy to do, but is it possible to develop something more realistic?

At least tack on that the asteroid separates into dust and raw ore in space, then the ship must tractor it in.

Still like the idea of mining being a bit more than that though.

Duality · Post by **Duality** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:45 am

Well astroids that are smaller than the starfighter craft could be blown up and collected as ore.. but not the big ones.

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:50 pm

A drill would be cooler.
Using a mining beam or blowing up the asteroid and tractoring in pieces seems like a cheap cop-out.
Blowing it up would be very dangerous, as the pieces do not decelerate as they expand. Would you be pissed if a piece of roadway was propelled by a jack hammer and hit your car?

pincushionman · Post by **pincushionman** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:22 pm

Duality wrote:Well astroids that are smaller than the starfighter craft could be blown up and collected as ore...

If it's that small and your ship is big enough to hold that much ore, what's stopping you from just tractoring in the whole 'roid and either transporting it to a facility for processing, or processing it in your own hold, ejecting the "slag" when you're done extracting the useful stuff? Hell of a lot safer than shooting it.

-pincushionman

Wireless Caller · Post by **Wireless Caller** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:28 pm

Shark wrote:A drill would be cooler.
Using a mining beam or blowing up the asteroid and tractoring in pieces seems like a cheap cop-out.
Blowing it up would be very dangerous, as the pieces do not decelerate as they expand. Would you be pissed if a piece of roadway was propelled by a jack hammer and hit your car?

well again.. were not trying to be realistic.

if animated meshes are supported in VS, it could be possible have a special ship similar to the one in homeworld 2 that will mine astroids.

we could try many different methods to mine an astroids. lets say:
* drill
* mining beams
* mining beams homeworld 1 style
etc..

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:04 pm

@Major
That pdf file is a dead link.

[edit] The Elite surface-mining technique sounds great! It should be applied to mining asteroids, as well.
For small asteroids, maybe a robotic unit could gather a bunch of them together, string them into a train, and then lead them to the refinery. They would also be fun units to attack! You could shoot the string of asteroids. They would scatter, and the robot would scurry to gather them up again. You could do it over and over again. And, if you attack the robot, it would flee!

DirtyMagic · Post by **DirtyMagic** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:48 pm

First off, I have to say I love the idea of mining asteroids. The more ways there are to make cash in VS the better... I'm all for variety and choice.

Personally, I'd love to see a really interactive method like the "mini-game" concept mentioned before. It would make collecting resources an actual skill you could master and make mining yet another legitimate, enjoyable "career path" to follow in VS. It also might actually be easier to impliment since it could be handled through docking rather than having to blow up the asteroid (which is currently impossible in VS, as far as I know). Though I suppose, as you hit the asteroid with your mining laser, it could just spew chunks and not blow up...

If it's that small and your ship is big enough to hold that much ore, what's stopping you from just tractoring in the whole 'roid and either transporting it to a facility for processing, or processing it in your own hold, ejecting the "slag" when you're done extracting the useful stuff? Hell of a lot safer than shooting it.

Absolutley! That's a great idea that makes ships like the Ox that much more useful. It would be most cool if you could either tractor in a whole asteroid to sell "bulk" or gather individual resources for an even higher profit.

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:36 pm

Duality wrote:Well astroids that are smaller than the starfighter craft could be blown up and collected as ore...

Well, at those volumes the ore wouldn't be worth that much.

Silverain · Post by **Silverain** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:42 pm

<opinion>

I personally would prefer to avoid the 'shoot asteroid and blow it up/blow off chunks to tractor in. It just seems too easy to obtain the ores.

I like:

Having to buy a specific piece of equipment (call it a mobile mining base, or an cargo bay refinery, whatever). Either way, only BIG ships are capable of mining operations. A small fighter or bomber just isn't designed for the job (but is designed to protect it!).

Option 1

Must tractor in asteroids that can fit within cargo bay. Cargo Bay Refinery then refines the asteroid, leaving the ore for sale. This would probably be the easiest option to implement.

Option 2
The more 'Elite style' method of docking to an asteroid

2a. commence mining operation automatically, must remain docked until hold is filled, or could manually leave beforehand with a lesser cargo. Take mining base with you when you leave.

2b. commence mining operation manually by activating say via the sell cargo screen (for asteroids call it mining screen or whole new interface for mining?). Have elite style where you can leave the miner in place and return to pick up more ore, but face danger of pirates?

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:07 am

I think the pirates should give mining platforms a low attack priority, as they're ships will tend to be too small to grab the booty. And, unless they're gems, the unit value will be low.

Silverain · Post by **Silverain** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:41 am

Shark wrote:I think the pirates should give mining platforms a low attack priority, as they're ships will tend to be too small to grab the booty. And, unless they're gems, the unit value will be low.

Two words 'claim jumper'. Free ore to sell for 100% profit?

pincushionman · Post by **pincushionman** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:10 am

dude, that's what piracy is all about!

-pincushionman

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:29 am

Silverain wrote:Two words 'claim jumper'. Free ore to sell for 100% profit?

Well, they'd have to have a mining platform of their own in order to jump the claim. If they destroy the mining platform, then no ore = 0% profit.

Silverain · Post by **Silverain** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:54 am

Shark wrote:Well, they'd have to have a mining platform of their own in order to jump the claim. If they destroy the mining platform, then no ore = 0% profit.

No, no. They take over YOUR platform while you're away. The asteroid doesn't limit who can dock to it. If you dock to an asteroid with a platform attached and operating, you can access that platform and the ore.* But yes, if they destroy platform (before onloading the ore) then they lose ore = 0% profit.

* Intergalactic regulations require that such platforms be accessible in case of emergencies such as atmospheric leaks

.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:56 am

How about Max in Road Warrior.. where he had an explosive device fitted to his fuel tanks. Would be cool if you could purchase some bioinformatic gear/ship upgrades and/or a mining base upgrade to ward off the pirates!!

Tyberious · Post by **Tyberious** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:46 am

Hello all,

First I would like to say that I think you are all doing great work on this project.

I have a great interest in this project having been what I call a EnB (Earth and Beyond) refugee. I have also played Eve which although is a very popular game lacked something for me.

Drawing from my experiences in both those game enviroments I would like to make some sugestions on mining.

But first I would like to discuss the differences between both Eve and EnB when it came to mining and my likes and dislikes of both. This also depends on how this games building and market structure will finally evolve.

EnB

Identifying Asteriods/ores/gases

In EnB you could visually identify (for the most part) what types of minerals/gases could be found within a given asteriod. Although this greatly helps the miner to locate more precious minerals and gases it has a negative impact on the game. Miners over looking lesser value asteriods in favour of the more valuable ones and leading to camping of the more precious rocks.

The Process of mining

In EnB the process of mining was mostly governed by the amount of reactor output that was available to you. The more precious minerals/gases consuming more energy to mine.

Eve

In Eve you were more dependant on a mining scaner to tell you what minerals/gases could be found in a given asteriod. Also, the level of scaner that you had equiped could have an effect on the yield of a asteriod. The higher, more powerful scaners giving the miner a better yield per asteriod.

The process of mining within Eve was more so dependant on the level and type of equipment used, some lower level mining beams being unable to mine the higher more precious minerals/gases. The higher the level of beam also increased the speed at which you retrieved ore/gas from a asteriod.

In both games refining was if not neccessary more profitable.

I like the idea of using mining scaners over visually detecting, if for nothing else to help prevent excessive camping of the more valuable asteriods. Also having varing consentrations of each mineral/gas within a asteriod is to me more desirable. Although the consentrations of various minerals could be richer in some systems more then others.

I don't think keeping mining to larger ships would be desirable, I think smaller ships even beginner ships should be able to mine. But at a cost, equiping a mining laser and scanner may mean that the miner would have to swap out weapons to mine and flee the area at the first sign of danger interupting mining in the process. Also, the much smaller cargo holds would mean that they would have to make more trips to a facility that could process the ore for them.

Larger ships could also mine and would have a larger cargo capasity but would also have to swap out weapons to mine and have to make frequent trips to a facility to refine the ore.

Specialized mining ships would be best having onboard refining, the ore once refined would take up less volume of cargo space and could also have a limited ability to defend itself while mining.

Although the a mobile refinery, deployed by a cargo ship to act as a remote deep space mining operation would be choice. Having much faster refining capabilities coupled with an increase in yield from raw ore. That in place with several mining ships working to supply ore to the refinery and cargo ships to deliver the refined ores to be sold on the market would be the ultimate.

Making mining into a skill is a great suggestion, coupled with specialized scanners and mining beams/drills I like the idea of the drifting drill head.

I don't think asteriods should explode, although they could crumple in on themselves as the ore is depleted within them.

Not sure how i feel about having to dock to a asteriod compared to just having to be within range of it.

I guess the overall idea when mining is concerned is that the larger the ship (excluding cargo ships because they could be used to place/transport mining facilities) the more self sufficient it could be.

Anyway thats a few of my thoughts, I hope they were helpful in some way. Again your all doing a great job.

Thanks

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Digging on Asteroids

Digging on Asteroids

mining base upgrade...