Asteriods
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- Elite Hunter
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I support this motion
Asteroids moving about at high "relative" speeds is inconsistent with science (they would mutually anihilate in no time, not to speak of the fact that there's no gravity to hold them in tight orbits, unless they are orbiting a small black hole); they are inconsistent with WC and Privateer AF's; and they do nothing for gameplay (they make travel more difficult, but in an "unfair" to the player kind of way).
I'll get to work on "better AF's" at some point in the next couple of months, but, for the time being, just stopping them is the way to go, IMO. If someone knows how to do it, that is...
Asteroids moving about at high "relative" speeds is inconsistent with science (they would mutually anihilate in no time, not to speak of the fact that there's no gravity to hold them in tight orbits, unless they are orbiting a small black hole); they are inconsistent with WC and Privateer AF's; and they do nothing for gameplay (they make travel more difficult, but in an "unfair" to the player kind of way).
I'll get to work on "better AF's" at some point in the next couple of months, but, for the time being, just stopping them is the way to go, IMO. If someone knows how to do it, that is...
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- Elite Hunter
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I changed difficulty to 0.02 from 0.22 in Pender's Star. The density decreases dramatically; because of that, it's hard to tell if the speed decreases, but I don't think it does.
The speed doesn't matter much, though, because at 0.02, the asteroid field looks nice visually, but you can afterburn right through it without maneuvering. So, the difficulty setting really should be based on what the purpose of the field is. I always thought Privateer used asteroid fields to make it hard to get to certain places, but it seemed a little silly that mining bases wouldn't clear a safe path for incoming ships. It also seemed silly that there was no simple way through Pender's Star, but I figured that was to cut off the two sides of Gemini.
On the other hand, pirate bases probably would LIKE being surrounded by a thick asteroid field that would pound any Confed capship to pieces. They might even steer small asteroids into clumps to protect themselves--like a minefield.
Moderately thick asteroid fields would also be useful at the entrance to dead-end systems, as a way of discouraging the player from going there.
So, this is for the crowd to decide--which asteroid fields should have their difficulties reduced, and to what level? I'd recommend folks play test various settings, and then just post the systems they think should be changed, and why. The "why" makes sure we don't affect balance without some discussion.
I'll start--change Pender's Star to 0.12. I always thought it was too hard for beginning players, although I understood the idea was to teach you how to fly through an asteroid field. I pick 0.12 because 0.02 is too easy, and I want to eventually add a fixer who adds a new Nav 3 to your nav map. This new Nav point allows you to bypass the asteroid field entirely.
The speed doesn't matter much, though, because at 0.02, the asteroid field looks nice visually, but you can afterburn right through it without maneuvering. So, the difficulty setting really should be based on what the purpose of the field is. I always thought Privateer used asteroid fields to make it hard to get to certain places, but it seemed a little silly that mining bases wouldn't clear a safe path for incoming ships. It also seemed silly that there was no simple way through Pender's Star, but I figured that was to cut off the two sides of Gemini.
On the other hand, pirate bases probably would LIKE being surrounded by a thick asteroid field that would pound any Confed capship to pieces. They might even steer small asteroids into clumps to protect themselves--like a minefield.
Moderately thick asteroid fields would also be useful at the entrance to dead-end systems, as a way of discouraging the player from going there.
So, this is for the crowd to decide--which asteroid fields should have their difficulties reduced, and to what level? I'd recommend folks play test various settings, and then just post the systems they think should be changed, and why. The "why" makes sure we don't affect balance without some discussion.
I'll start--change Pender's Star to 0.12. I always thought it was too hard for beginning players, although I understood the idea was to teach you how to fly through an asteroid field. I pick 0.12 because 0.02 is too easy, and I want to eventually add a fixer who adds a new Nav 3 to your nav map. This new Nav point allows you to bypass the asteroid field entirely.
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Good stuff. I like very much the concept of AF densities being variable. Absolutely right on!
It would still be nice to find where the damned motion of the asteroids is and bring it down to next to nothing, tho. But I've no idea where it might be. I'll poke around a bit, see if I can find it.
It would still be nice to find where the damned motion of the asteroids is and bring it down to next to nothing, tho. But I've no idea where it might be. I'll poke around a bit, see if I can find it.
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- Elite Hunter
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I also agree with the new densities.
The movement speed, couldn't that be in units.csv as a gov setting? Like ships have a movement. The speed doesn't seem to be generated randomly, I rather have the feeling that all asteroids have the same speed, maybe according to their size - at least I have never seen a single asteroid standing still.
The movement speed, couldn't that be in units.csv as a gov setting? Like ships have a movement. The speed doesn't seem to be generated randomly, I rather have the feeling that all asteroids have the same speed, maybe according to their size - at least I have never seen a single asteroid standing still.
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For mining I, too, would appreciate a higher density. Object speed doesn't matter to me, as I will be following the rocks around at their own speed. However, a high density field makes it much easier to splatter the pirate ships that compete for MY loot.
(I love the way that driving a pirate onto an asteroid does not make my relations with them any worse. I don't get any credit for the kill either -- but why would I need more kills on the record?)
If you want to mine stationary rocks -- look at the rotation of the field & go to one of the "poles" of that asteroid field.
(I love the way that driving a pirate onto an asteroid does not make my relations with them any worse. I don't get any credit for the kill either -- but why would I need more kills on the record?)
If you want to mine stationary rocks -- look at the rotation of the field & go to one of the "poles" of that asteroid field.
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Since Melonhead is currently working on that, I'd initially propose to stop asteroids around mining bases from moving, that means as soon as we know how.
Apart from that it makes mining easier, it makes sense that mining bases are built in asteroid fields with no danger of rocks hitting bases. Moving asteroids around planets seem for reasons of gravity okay for me, though I'd like to see them rather in a belt, but to use them for the sake of tactical advantage, the planets are just too small.
For pirate bases, I'd suggest very low densities. If I understood the concept correctly, pirate bases are nothing else then abandoned mining bases (obviously abandoned for there are no more minerals to get). Therefor, most asteroids have been mined and the interest for the system is lost.
Talking about the AF in Pender's Star, I think the high density makes sense for the system being a "Pirate Blockade Point system" - no one would ever seriously dare to start mining out there.
Always remember we have two types of asteroids in the game, the minable and the unminable (for example seen in Rikel system). Those can be used for tactical points, too - at least I see no problem in changing the asteroid typos while we already have our fingers on them.
I like the concept of higher densities and lower movement very much, for I also see chances to dodge enemies there without even shooting at them.
Apart from that it makes mining easier, it makes sense that mining bases are built in asteroid fields with no danger of rocks hitting bases. Moving asteroids around planets seem for reasons of gravity okay for me, though I'd like to see them rather in a belt, but to use them for the sake of tactical advantage, the planets are just too small.
For pirate bases, I'd suggest very low densities. If I understood the concept correctly, pirate bases are nothing else then abandoned mining bases (obviously abandoned for there are no more minerals to get). Therefor, most asteroids have been mined and the interest for the system is lost.
Talking about the AF in Pender's Star, I think the high density makes sense for the system being a "Pirate Blockade Point system" - no one would ever seriously dare to start mining out there.
Always remember we have two types of asteroids in the game, the minable and the unminable (for example seen in Rikel system). Those can be used for tactical points, too - at least I see no problem in changing the asteroid typos while we already have our fingers on them.
I like the concept of higher densities and lower movement very much, for I also see chances to dodge enemies there without even shooting at them.
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Hmm... I was thinking just the opposite. Pirate bases are abandoned mining bases, but there are still plenty of rocks and ice out there, without any value, that would still be drifting around.For pirate bases, I'd suggest very low densities. If I understood the concept correctly, pirate bases are nothing else then abandoned mining bases (obviously abandoned for there are no more minerals to get). Therefor, most asteroids have been mined and the interest for the system is lost.
Mining bases would want to keep clear approach lanes for their ore ships, but I was thinking pirate bases would want to have a lot of asteroids around them, so it would be harder for Confed/Militia to attack them. Pirates would just stop clearing the space around their bases, and presto! --a natural minefield. I think it would be safe to assume that mining/pirate bases are on large asteroids, so they would eventually develop an entourage. They don't look too large in Privateer because everything is small-scale.
Hadn't thought about Pender's Star being the equivalent of a blockade point, since Troy is peaceful. That would actually make a fixer even more valuable, since a nav point around the asteroid field would also avoid most pirate trouble. I still haven't figured out how the nav computer works, though. I know how to add a nav point in the *.system file, but doing it that way would basically hack the nav point in for any saved game.
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I don't see the big deal with asteroids, with small ships I have no problems with zooming through them like a bat out of hell to outrun big fights that I love to start... and with bigger less mobile ships I just go "north" straight up and out of the fields; I fly over them..
You should be able to also, you can fly under, over, to the left, and to the right of the fields...
It's a bit of an inconvenience, but if you don't think you can take the quicker route through the fields then stay out of them...
Now I agree with fog and particles, for they would make combat in the fields a lot funner, albeit more dangerous, b/c of visibility problems...lol
I own like every ship out there and I don't wreck(much) in them...
You should be able to also, you can fly under, over, to the left, and to the right of the fields...
It's a bit of an inconvenience, but if you don't think you can take the quicker route through the fields then stay out of them...
Now I agree with fog and particles, for they would make combat in the fields a lot funner, albeit more dangerous, b/c of visibility problems...lol
I own like every ship out there and I don't wreck(much) in them...
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If i remember correctly there is more than one jump point that is in the middle of an asteroid field. So if you happen to pick the wrong cargo mission and pop out in an asteroid field while cruising in your paradigm, navigating around the field is not an option.
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That is true, I didn't quite think of that, but it adds to the dangers of the universe...
Just another obstacle to overcome, stuff happens, respawn and don't go that way again..
Another thing you can do is go very slow and zoom the camera out so you have a 360 view of your ship...
It helps me in those situations...
Just another obstacle to overcome, stuff happens, respawn and don't go that way again..
Another thing you can do is go very slow and zoom the camera out so you have a 360 view of your ship...
It helps me in those situations...
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Processor#1: x86 Family 6 Model 14 Stepping 8 GenuineIntel ~1596 Mhz
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- Elite
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Another obstacle yes; but an unfair obstacle, in gameplay terms --i.e.: more a matter of luck than skill.blackangel2008 wrote:That is true, I didn't quite think of that, but it adds to the dangers of the universe...
Just another obstacle to overcome, stuff happens, respawn and don't go that way again..
But more importantly, asteroids would never move around with such high relative velocities. It makes no bloody sense: They'd turn into dust from mutual collisions. Besides, unless there's a small black hole at the center of these asteroid fields, there's nothing to keep the roids "circling". Mutual gravitational attraction would be so feeble they'd take many years to orbit one another. Maybe someone who has absolutely no clue about physics and space won't be bothered by such glaring inconsistencies, but there's many of us who find such things offensive.
Wherever there's a choice on how to add difficulty to the game, and one choice is more realistic and intuitive than another, it should be preferred. AF's could be made more difficult by making them denser and reducing visibility, which are more realistic and convincing and fair attributes than having rocks jumping around like popcorn.
Doesn't help; you can't judge the relative distances, which is another issue yet: How big are the asteroids? No clues, visual or otherwise. I'd like to see asteroid sizes that vary in a range spanning orders of magnitude, and that you can tell their size by looking at them. Like something that looks round and shows a lot of crater impacts is probably some huge, moon-sized asteroid; but some shapeless piece of rock visibly growing in size in front of you is probably a good reason to pull on the stick.Another thing you can do is go very slow and zoom the camera out so you have a 360 view of your ship...
Finally, what kind of "difficulty" is good in games? Good difficulty is difficulty that fills you with fear but doesn't often kill you, and which allows you to do something about it. Dying in a game and having to reload is something that kills immersiveness. It's one of the primary aspects that separate good games from cheap arcades. Visibility reduction in AF's would add dread factor without increasing the kill-the-player factor, and this is "good" difficulty. It also allows you to do something about it: Go more slowly; whereas moving roids you can do "more nothing" about them, the faster they move... And did I mention they offend?
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Not sure if i find it offensive, But i certainly find it stupid and bloody annoying.chuck_starchaser wrote: but there's many of us who find such things offensive.
The System Shock and Thief series are good examples, nothing at all to do with PR though.Finally, what kind of "difficulty" is good in games? Good difficulty is difficulty that fills you with fear but doesn't often kill you, and which allows you to do something about it.
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- Elite Hunter
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The main problem is the AI. Human players know when it's time to slow done and carefully approach a nav point in a AF, but AI ships tend to afterburn around as if nothing could kill them. I once escorted a Demon through five systems when it finally reached Macabee. It started afterburning towards the base and BOOM - it hit and asteroid, mission failed.blackangel2008 wrote:I don't see the big deal with asteroids
This is a thing that shouldn't be possible, as chuck stated. AFs of that size shouldn't be able to form bulbs as we see them in-game, that's unrealistic, as it should be evading an asteroid field so easy. Asteroid fields can only occur if trapped in any form of gravitational effect, otherwised they would just be floating asteroids. Despite of that, we're not working on removing them. All we want is that they look more realistic, from a certain perspective, and this can be achieved py smooth densities as well as no movement.You should be able to also, you can fly under, over, to the left, and to the right of the fields...
Well, despite of me agreeing, I must also state that nothing in life, nor in space, will ever be 100% fair and space is simply hazardous and there are things which can kill you just for you being in the wrong coordinates at the wrong time.chuck wrote:Another obstacle yes; but an unfair obstacle, in gameplay terms --i.e.: more a matter of luck than skill.
Personally, I don't take asteroid fields as an offense against my physical knowledge. It's rather a "feature" of nearly every spacesim which got implemented. Like shields, warp engines, or just flyby-sounds in space.there's many of us who find such things offensive.
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Make that "a feature of many space ARCADES", rather than "sims". Priv/WC is neither sim nor arcade, in this regard; something inbetween. But at the end of the day, for me it boils down to my canon principles: If a departure from canon will a) Improve gameplay AND b) Make things mor realistic, believable or sensible, AND c) can be accomodated, explained in-game, so that it doesn't negate the original experience, then it's a no-brainer to adopt it. Otherwise, it's better to stay canonical. In this case, the asteroids in the original Privateer didn't move; or if they did it was pretty slow motion. And the PR departure of them jumping around like popcorn is LESS realistic, LESS believable, LESS sensical, and WORSENS gameplay. Furthermore, we have the intro movie, which shows a denser field of stationary asteroids of varying sizes, which we are at liberty to adopt as OUR canon reference.Dilloh wrote:Personally, I don't take asteroid fields as an offense against my physical knowledge. It's rather a "feature" of nearly every spacesim which got implemented. Like shields, warp engines, or just flyby-sounds in space.there's many of us who find such things offensive.
As for space sounds, Privateer didn't have fly-by sounds, or did it?. What it did have for sure was sounds when your bolts hit enemy ships. BUT, those sounds sound so synthetic and artificial we can assume they are in fact synthetic, and make that particular sound sound like it's coming from a small speaker on the dashboard. And if it did have flyby sounds we can do the same to those sounds and make it obvious they are synthetically produced by your nav computer for your benefit.
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They moved around their own axis. Despite of that, they indeed didn't move.In this case, the asteroids in the original Privateer didn't move; or if they did it was pretty slow motion.
Of course it had. Also in the original, you could hear ships passing by yours, or the weapons fire of other ships.As for space sounds, Privateer didn't have fly-by sounds, or did it?
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I must have blocked it out...
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The original was made in the days of DOS so much of the drivers, etc were loaded in high memory, which if it wasn't properly optimized wouldn't load certain things like the sound drivers.
Not to mention your sound card had to be compatible with the one they designed the game for.
I remember I had to make my own optimized memory boot disk just to run the game with all the bells and whistles enabled.
But depending on the sound card I was using it either worked or the sound was either mutilated or static. Or there would be music but no dialog.
I found it much easier to run other games like Bio-Forge, etc, which had fewer memory and system requirements.
Not to mention your sound card had to be compatible with the one they designed the game for.
I remember I had to make my own optimized memory boot disk just to run the game with all the bells and whistles enabled.
But depending on the sound card I was using it either worked or the sound was either mutilated or static. Or there would be music but no dialog.
I found it much easier to run other games like Bio-Forge, etc, which had fewer memory and system requirements.