what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

[pontiac]

or you could have a basic AI take control and user better pray it wins the fight.

This is also a good idea, but there should be an indication to show that fact (AI is playing) to other players.

Ponitac

[smbarbour]

I don't think the AI should continue fighting. The AI should just high-tail it to the nearest friendly base or planet. If the ship has turrets, it should defend as it flies, but the AI's main concern should be the survival of the player's character.

Here's another issue to chew on:
If I have docked at a base and am not online, what should happen to my character and ship if the base is destroyed?

[chuck_starchaser]

"Each client only need interact and communicate with those clients that it has a direct interaction with. The vision i have (for i accept it is a little far out at the moment) is a system where the game universe is partitioned with groups of clients dynamically creating sub-clusters as required. On another layer (ie trade), the client is part of a larger cluster where the data requirements are less time critical. At the top most layer, login, chat channels, missions and story lines and other coordination which require minimal processing could be maintained on community run servers."

Yes, I know, same vision here all along. When in my examples I used the arbitray figure of 25 ships, that's what I meant might be the maximum 'per theater', meaning, involved in each battle, plus plasma shots in flight, plus missiles, plus mines. But, in any case, if klauss is right and there's a way within current bandwidth that everybody can broadcast their status, then, by all means this should be doable.

I don't think the AI should continue fighting. The AI should just high-tail it to the nearest friendly base or planet. If the ship has turrets, it should defend as it flies, but the AI's main concern should be the survival of the player's character.

I totally agree. The A.I. should be smart enough to speed away, use evasive maneuvers, drop flares and chaff for missiles, even to turn on the rear turret in free shoot mode, and avoid crashing on asteroids; but no more.

Here's another issue to chew on:
If I have docked at a base and am not online, what should happen to my character and ship if the base is destroyed?

Long before it gets destroyed, you'd get a cell phone call..

[ack2000]

if the base is destroyed you wake up floating on a small piece of a hull.

but if bases can be destroyed then they better tough and defend them selves. At least
3 or 4 cap ships attacking a mining base would be a good balance, maybe. need to seriously think about that...

[Duality]

Don't be tottaly dependable on AI.

In multplayer, AI are like automated robots, vending machines, or ATM.

Yeah they can be good to be shot at but in multiplayer crafting, automated missions for those who want to be solo, but the game should be best played by pure PvP combat. Deaths in an online game shoulden't mean a lot.

As for bases being destroyed, while a person is logged off, upon logging in, he should be back in another station with a death count.

[smbarbour]

We've got two camps here in regards to death in multiplayer.

Camp A) We have Duality's "Deathmatch death count" where you respawn with a death on your record.

Camp B) We have chuck_starchaser's "One Life to Live" (sorry, it was appropriate) where if you die, you start over as a new pilot.

Camp A is good for PvP arena style multiplayer (which is probably the first type of MP to be made). However, camp B is much more appropriate for the MMO style game.

While camp B is more extreme that I would generally prefer, I find myself more in that camp than camp A. In a camp A style game, if a player drops, then you don't need to worry about an AI to save the ship. You can just respawn.

[chuck_starchaser]

Duality, I keep on arguing against death, and I'll repeat my arguments in case you haven't seen my posts about it. If you have but just disagree, then skip reading.

I find games where death comes often sort of shallow. Game balancing does not matter; bugs don't matter, nothing really matters much, since you can just reload or respawn. I believe that death should be the ultimate punishment, the ultimate failure, and the end of the game; that it should be unthinkable, -- a NON-option.

Now, you might wonder how can people battle head to head and not risk death?

I presented a possible solution to this problem: To have "sim halls" IN the game. These "sim halls", present in most planets, would offer various simulator types that you can pay for by the hour, say 50 credits per hour typical. There'd be various modes, ranging for highly realistic simulation and down to arcades. There'd be 'arena' style games going on all the time. There'd be the ability for players to fight head to head for bets (in game credits). Players about to embark on a difficult mission could get together at the sim hall to practise the mission before flying off.
If a group of players decide to run cargo to a distant place as a convoy, they can practise the whole mission in the simulator, and be confronted by the types and numbers of enemies they are statistically likely to encounter en route, in the real world.

In other words, most REAL missions would be cooperative and against NPC's; but players could play head to head as a game within the game, and even take bets, for extra fun.

Now, there could be wars "in the real world" between factions of real players. There could be "wars of attrition", there could be "cold wars", or mere "veiled threats of war", which in a hard-core game, where death means death, would make you soil your computer chair. And if there is real player to player battle, it will probably happen when either both sides feel pretty confident of their strength or abilities versus the other, or because avoiding war would require them to give up more than they feel they could live without.

I've only played one game that was hard core: a flight sim called TFX. And if anyone says they lack tension or adrenaline, let me tell you that the opposite is the truth. You're shaking with adrenaline 24 hours in advance of flying a mission... .. seriously! I'd go to the simulation room, first to fly over the map of the area where the mission was to take place. Then I'd start placing enemy planes and SAMs, practising contingencies, changing the types of enemy planes and pilot skills, trying subtle changes in my weapons loadout...

[chuck_starchaser]

Camp A) We have Duality's "Deathmatch death count" where you respawn with a death on your record.

Camp B) We have chuck_starchaser's "One Life to Live" (sorry, it was appropriate) where if you die, you start over as a new pilot.

There's also Camp C which I shamefully now forget who came up with it, and a very good idea, though I remain in B:

Camp C) Have the ability to clone yourself. You pay a LARGE sum of money to have a clone, which is then frozen. If you die, you're un-frozen. And it takes days of real world time for the unfreezing and readying of the clone. Whenever you log in, it just shows you the progress, until the "new you" is ready.

[smbarbour]

Slightly OT but related...

About 10 minutes ago I nearly died laughing when thinking about death in Vega Strike. An image popped into my head from "Family Guy".

We can rebuild him. We have the technology. But we don't want to spend a lot of money.

[ack2000]

Camp D no death(kinda) you are floating space till someone picks you up and sells/frees you. Pray you have enough money to free yourself. Not enough, we could put a life span on character X amount of time would pass for X amount of dollars. And all Characters would have certain life span.
Note you would have be slave to afford a newship aslo.

And I could make the cheapest piece of garbage can you can fly to get started.

[smbarbour]

And I could make the cheapest piece of garbage can you can fly to get started.

No offense to the designer, but we already have that. It's called the Dodo.

[Duality]

There can be a lot of fusteration of dying and starting all over again. I have experienced this in other massivly online multiplayer games. What if in an online game you were to make a stupid mastake by ramming into a black astroid and then you have to start all over again? I would not want to go through the fusteration for that.

There is an alternative to perma death. How about a death which harshful consequences instead? There will be NO insurance on ships, equipment and cargo on hold upon dying in order to prevent the game from just being a traditional deathmatch. Oh yeah, the recloning or recreation(if you are a robot) fees shoulden't be at a high price mabie 50k to 100k.

Don't let some realistic aspects stop your imagination. :)

p.s. the reason why I keep skipping post is because time I hit reply, theres like 2-3 other posts before mine.

And oh yes, I can make ships that can be the cheapest peice of garbage as well.

Well...

For more information about mmo aspects, come and take look at mmorpg.com.

Here is more of a specific location.

[chuck_starchaser]

If you eject, you might be able to land on a station, or on a large ship. And if you had a fancy "stealth ejection unit", you could piggy back on even enemy ships, unnoticed, so as to reach a sytem where there's a space station.

By the way, hardcore doesn't mean you'd never get attacked by real players!
What it does imply is that you'd be less likely to be attacked by players with good ships and some game seniority. But *new* players have little to lose by having to re-start the game, and they might choose to be PITAs.

[chuck_starchaser]

There can be a lot of fusteration of dying and starting all over again. I have experienced this in other massivly online multiplayer games. What if in an online game you were to make a stupid mastake by ramming into a black astroid and then you have to start all over again? I would not want to go through the fusteration for that.

But, precisely because such game imbalances, oversights or bugs would be so frustrating, we'd get tons more bug reports, --a flood--, and would force VS to become a much better game. Hardcore foments seriousness, both on the part of players and on the part of developers. Easy deaths should not happen. And if at the beginning you are careless flying through asteroids and you die, in the new game you won't be.

Think of it this way: In the real world there are many challenges, and ways to live dangerously. But most of us choose safety over excitement; so then we turn to games to fulfill the hunger for excitement. So, let's have that! Let's have a game where you can live a more exciting life, without risk to your physical, real self. But if you remove risk to your virtual self, then there's not much excitement anymore. You are not living the exciting new life, but merely individual moments of lukewarm excitement.

[smbarbour]

I just had another idea. Syndicate style players. You start with one pilot available to you. As you destroy ships you can tractor in the pilots. These pilots can either be sold or be added to your crew cache. If you get a larger ship that has turrets, you will need crew members to fly the ship and operate the turrets. If your ship get blown up, you lose the ship and the crew, and if you have another ship and more crew, you can keep playing.

[Duality]

I don't want to be a meanie but I found one more exploit for the perma death system. What if there was a person who was a cold blooded player killer and started to kill newbies left and right as in the victim has to start all over again, and THEN he kills the same victim again.

Here is the situation:

Time line:

00:00- Pilot Joe starts.

00:15- Pilot Joe takes some trading missions.

12:00- Pilot Joe makes a few thousands credits.

13:00- Pilot Joe gets killed by a high level player.

13:25- Pilot Joe starts all over again.

20:00- Pilot Joe makes some cash again and gets killed by the same player.

Almost a hour has passed and gets killed by the same player to a point where it's not worth playing the game anymore if I can't gain access to any equipment.

Now thats fusterating. Critics may thing that perma death would be way too hardcore.

But I want the ability where if you are to host a universe(a network of servers), you can have the ability to toggle perma death on or off.

With Perma death on and if you were to die, you have to start all over again.

With perma death off, simply you lose your ship and everything else equipped and simple get respawned back at a station.

[chuck_starchaser]

Okay, first of all, a new player has not too much to lose having to restart the game.

Number two:
Why would this senior player attack the new player? Is he in an enemy faction? Hardly possible, as new players start at relatively calm systems, well policed and populated by people of their own faction.
Is he of the same faction but just wants to be an ass? He won't be of the same faction for long if he keeps attacking players of his own faction.

In a serious game, there's no incentive to being a pain for the hell of it.

EDIT:
In fact, most players of rank would probably want to help and guide newbies and make friends, because you need friends in order to network; and you need to network to make it easy to find escorts or co-pilots or turret gunners for the more advanced missions.

[Silverain]

Okay, first of all, a new player has not too much to lose having to restart the game.

Gamewise, correct, but playwise a new player would lose interest in the game quickly if the player was not able to achieve something for the effort. Personally, I'd get p****d with a game quickly if some online idiot (particularly if I noticed it was the same one), kept killing me before I could get into the game. It would be no reflection on the game, just the MP community, but by association I'd never play the game again.

Number two:
Why would this senior player attack the new player?... In a serious game, there's no incentive to being a pain for the hell of it.

Most wouldn't, and would actually help for the reasons you mentioned. But, you get the bad apples here and there. For some, player killing IS the be all and end all of the game, and they get their thrills from killing newbies.

Unfortunately, they are the questions each online community has had to face, with varying degrees of success.

[Guest]

in every single multiplayer game, there will always be jerks and greifers.

there should be a huge reward 4 newbie killers.

[ack2000]

Ok this is simple solution to the newbie killed by high level. And I am sure some will point out the flaw I have not thought of. newbie start in sector A of his faction. Till he reach a certain level of skill for lack of better word at the moment. before say an AI (militi/confed/whatever) lets you jump out of controled territories. say 3 or 4 systems.


Now if anyone is a star trek fan, you may remeber shield has fequency that had to have to shoot through said shields. So we could modify this idea if you fire on someone of same faction it would not be affective.
But say the player which to change sides. we could add the option in to do so (one time only) but If hes in control area any all person in said area would regester on the first shoot he is an enemy inculding any AI's

[Guest]

ok in a common space trading games, when you die, you simply respawn back at your homeplanet when you die. in a large universe the only consequences that you have to pay to make up is, at ur own home planet or station with no ship and rebuy all yo crap for death to actually mean something. and then you have to travel long distances to get back where you are at.

actually, i hated the part where you can home at any starbases and respawning back at the station after dying with all the equipment needed for fighters in the station. because that to me, would be just pure quake in space and a pointless gankfest to a point where sometimes the invader's resources will get drained out and the defenders win a situation. jumpgate by netdevil was a bad example for that. you should not be able to die in a battle and then come back in the battle for a few minutes trying to eleminate your enemy.

when you die, you will respawn back to your real respawn planet that you have a high reputation rating at. which is many systems away so in that case if the invaders kills the defenders in the station, it should take them a while to come back.

if the invaders came to a place where the defenders respawned at, then the invaders should be vaporized quickly since they have a hostile reputation rating with that npc faction.

[Guest]

Permadeath sucks. Crossfire used to be permadeath in the begining, now all servers have permadeath disabled. You just loose some stats when you die.

Permadeath is _no_ fun.
You can have it as an option in the server conf, but the default should be you just loose some $$$ etc and respawn at your last save point (base or planet.. or base on planet once we get proper planets.. please )

Everyone can postulate this and that ... but perma death the SUCK.

[Guest]

In a serious game, there's no incentive to being a pain for the hell of it.

As well as the use of a sad oxymoron, i reckon you havn't played too many MMORPGs.

[chuck_starchaser]

That's true, you got me there.

[pifactorial]

I haven't really been following this thread, but if we had permadeath, I think new players should be "born" into a faction, starting at that faction's homeworld. There they could trade and such, maybe venture into nearby systems, until they could defend themselves. If a hostile ship was to come into the system, it would be blasted by the system's massive defences. In this scenario, a new player would only be endangered by their own stupidity.