Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
Having auto-escorts at the same level of functionality of NPCs makes very little sense.
That's true for drones, but you said you wanted to hire (human, aka NPC) pilots and manage (living) crew, which logically means exactly that. There's no advantage to having other people in your ship or fleet of ships if you manage them exactly like upgrades and they behave exactly like drones.
There is a difference. If you put an AI against an NPC, you'd expect the AI to loose all other things being equal. Man vs machine stuff. Otherwise nobody would live in space, and that's without even mentioning the nano-plague.

So, saying they're people makes it more believable when they're at equal footing against NPCs.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: There is a difference. If you put an AI against an NPC, you'd expect the AI to loose all other things being equal. Man vs machine stuff. Otherwise nobody would live in space, and that's without even mentioning the nano-plague.

So, saying they're people makes it more believable when they're at equal footing against NPCs.
Well okay, I think it comes back to explicit hiring being the issue here. It isn't fun even if it is more realistic. Just like having to constantly pay tens of thousands of credits for repairs and fuel after every flight would not be fun, even if it is realistic. So I say let's not bother the player with these boring and costly details.

You can assume some kind of living things are flying your ships for you, but you pay them so little money relative to the cost of a ship or upgrade or anything else you explicitly buy in game and they are so easy to find at the space ports you visit, that the game doesn't bother you with hiring or managing them. Just like it doesn't bother you with managing a million other requirements of space travel.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

But then how come you do pay a considerable amount to hire a wingman, or to hire ship delivery?

I think it makes no economic sense to not pay for crew, and it may create serious loopholes in the game's economy.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:But then how come you do pay a considerable amount to hire a wingman, or to hire ship delivery?
There's a huge difference between bring your own multimillion-credit military grade space warship and here kid, fly mine. The VS universe has ~trillions of individuals but only thousands of ships. The dystopian reality is that all of the economics favor the ship owners in contract negotiations, not pilots.

And that's strongly rooted in the gameplay economics reality as well. If you hire a wingman with his own ship, and he dies, you lose nothing. If you give a wingman a ship of your own and he gets himself killed, you lose big time.

Tangentially, the current game balance charges you way too much for hiring escorts, especially considering their limited combat effectiveness, so no one uses them.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Yeah... could be. Still, I think it could be harmful macro-economically speaking.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:Still, I think it could be harmful macro-economically speaking.
What do you mean?
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:Still, I think it could be harmful macro-economically speaking.
What do you mean?
It could be an exploit. Once you get a fleet, you have zero maintainance cost.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: It could be an exploit. Once you get a fleet, you have zero maintenance cost.
That's not an exploit, that's just how the game was designed. You can buy a 2 kilometer long Clydesdale or other super heavy warship and you have no maintenance costs on it. Big ships like this can be just as lethal as a large fleet of small ships.

Instead the game has substantial risk. Every time you take out a ship or a fleet of ships, there is a good chance one will be destroyed by a marauding flight group from some enemy faction. The rate you lose such expensive investments easily keeps up with the cost of maintenance in a less violent game setting.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

I have the feeling it will come back to bite us. But lets assume what you say.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

If there turns out be an imbalancing effect somehow, the solution would be material maintenance costs, not pilot costs. Otherwise, you tax players with a few little ships but not the player with the one giant Clydedale warship.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

What about dividing this into manageable steps, and adding them to the feature tracker? If it's not there already, I remember some things about cargo wingmen. Maybe add the comments there, I dunno.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:What about dividing this into manageable steps, and adding them to the feature tracker? If it's not there already, I remember some things about cargo wingmen. Maybe add the comments there, I dunno.
How about this for a first step:

When the player is at a base that houses ship(s) in his fleet, for every ship he is not himself flying, there is the option "Launch Escort" which will have that ship take off when he does and behave as an escort. Conversely, whenever the player is at a base with escorting ship(s) that he owns, the option "Ground Escort" will be available for each ship, which will move it into storage at that base.

Is that relatively bite sized to implement?

Also what permissions do you need to create a ticket in the feature tracker? It seems you don't even need an SF account to post a bug ticket but the feature tracker is not as permissive.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:What about dividing this into manageable steps, and adding them to the feature tracker? If it's not there already, I remember some things about cargo wingmen. Maybe add the comments there, I dunno.
How about this for a first step:

When the player is at a base that houses ship(s) in his fleet, for every ship he is not himself flying, there is the option "Launch Escort" which will have that ship take off when he does and behave as an escort. Conversely, whenever the player is at a base with escorting ship(s) that he owns, the option "Ground Escort" will be available for each ship, which will move it into storage at that base.

Is that relatively bite sized to implement?
That might need quite some work to figure out the interface, but seems about right for a feature.
Deus Siddis wrote:Also what permissions do you need to create a ticket in the feature tracker? It seems you don't even need an SF account to post a bug ticket but the feature tracker is not as permissive.
If I didn't break permissions when I fiddled with them, you only need a SF account. Most of the trackers except the bug tracker I tried not to make anonymous-postable because otherwise we're filled with spam.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: That might need quite some work to figure out the interface, but seems about right for a feature.
The only alternative I can think of that doesn't involve changes to the interface is to have escorting be the default behavior for the player's fleet. So every player owned ship automatically flies with him as an escort, taking off and landing whenever and wherever he does.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote: That might need quite some work to figure out the interface, but seems about right for a feature.
The only alternative I can think of that doesn't involve changes to the interface is to have escorting be the default behavior for the player's fleet. So every player owned ship automatically flies with him as an escort, taking off and landing whenever and wherever he does.
I don't think it's worth avoiding those interface changes. Having an interface is good, if it's too much work, too bad, I'd say suck it up and work. ;)

But really, feature without interface isn't worth it IMHO.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

Okay so what is the protocol for posting a feature ticket; should someone like me assign an owner and priority level or just post the title and description?
Last edited by Deus Siddis on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:Okay so what is the protocol for posting a feature ticket; should someone like me assign an owner and priority level or just post the title and description?
Just title and description, owner will be assigned when someone takes up the task, and priority sometime before and after that (yeah vague)
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

Posted.

This will be an immense enhancement, being able to fully customize and field an affordable fleet without the hassles and limitations of the cargo escorts feature. The player will have the ability to, with some considerable effort and time investment, make noticeable waves in the dynamic universe and affect the course of its history. And it will give him something meaningful to do after he has "maxed out" his own ship of choice.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

Question now is, where does it go in the roadmap?

0.5.2 is closed for additions, but I'm not sure about where in the ones following it should we add this.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

As early as possible, since it is a relatively low hanging fruit and a gameplay feature, which tends to benefit the most from a lot of testing and evolutionary changes over time. It could lead to a dozen similar sized enhancements, but without testing, it is more difficult to determine what they all might be.
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

It's not hanging so low
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

It is if you don't bother with those interface changes. :wink:

What is the sequence of planned releases by the way? Will there be a 0.5.1r2 or a 0.5.2r1?
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

I'd say 0.5.2, there's not much left on the roadmap that can't be moved to 0.5.3 or plain dropped. I'll try to work on one of my tasks this weekend for instance (among other stuff).
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by Deus Siddis »

So how about assigning this feature to 0.5.3 then, is there room?
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Re: Ships carying Ships carying Ships carrying cargo

Post by klauss »

0.5.3 has XGUI, which I've been meaning to finish for a long while, and would help incredibly much when dealing with 2D interfaces. In fact, I've been toying with the idea of using XGUI for cockpits too.

So that will take a lot from me. If I'm to code the fleet enhancements, I would say not on 0.5.3, or spread between 0.5.3 and 0.5.4. If a part of it can be done for 0.5.3, it would be possible to do that part, and slate the rest for 0.5.4.
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