Acceleration, physics, and other ship enhancements/rebalance

[klauss]

I believe it could be some brokenness of the fleet system. Buying your ship is exactly that: you buy it. It might have some bug when the ship you're buying has some discrepancy with units.csv.

I've been planning to rework the entire units.csv system to fix that. In essence, instead of having tons of capabilities on the csv, a unit+upgrades system to account for them would be far more robust under those situations (and many others, including damaged items and lots of other corner cases). But I haven't had any time to implement it yet.

PS: I'm gonna test it shortly. It got a bit complicated since I have conflicting local changes, but I'll revert momentarily to be able to test and commit this. Perhaps as soon as tomorrow.

[Hicks]

If you are reworking the units.csv, it might be worth making seperate .csv for ships, equipment and stations. Its a bugger to edit, too many columns and at least half of them are empty for each object cause there are parameters they don't need

[IansterGuy]

...In essence, instead of having tons of capabilities on the csv, a unit+upgrades system to account for them would be far more robust under those situations (and many others, including damaged items and lots of other corner cases).

I'm glad your already thinking that, because I was going to suggest ship statistics be separate from their bundled upgrades in the catalog; and also separate from those attributing properties of individual objects.

I played the liner acceleration patch and things seem as predicted. If you take into account the huge size of the Lambaa and Robin in their specifications, then the accelerations seem right. Ignoring the size of the ship, it seems to slow because the models and textures due to the large cockpit windows, make the ships seems small. They are not small on paper as I exhibited for the Lambaa in drawings I made here. The solution to make combat faster is to make the ships smaller in my opinion, especially fighters like the Robbin which is almost the same size as the Lambaa, a transport vessel. Smaller vessels are more difficult to hit, so is in part the combat equivalent of making them faster.

This is why I suggested that the balance can't be really considered finished until sizes are corrected too. I recommend shrinking only the fighters for now, but acknowledge that even shrinking just them would also require some new smaller ship which are inverse to their price.

[loki1950]

Just a quick quibble that should be llama not lambaa it's an animal not a greek letter

Enjoy the Choice

[Deus Siddis]

I've been planning to rework the entire units.csv system to fix that. In essence, instead of having tons of capabilities on the csv, a unit+upgrades system to account for them would be far more robust under those situations (and many others, including damaged items and lots of other corner cases).

Cool. I also echo the sentiment that units.csv is a pain to work in for its huge number of rows and columns.

PS: I'm gonna test it shortly. It got a bit complicated since I have conflicting local changes, but I'll revert momentarily to be able to test and commit this. Perhaps as soon as tomorrow.

Good, I should have an angular accelerations patch ready by then as well.

[Deus Siddis]

If you take into account the huge size of the Lambaa and Robin in their specifications,

...especially fighters like the Robbin which is almost the same size as the Lambaa, a transport vessel.

What specifications? Looking at the two in blender, the robin appears to be roughly less than half the volume of just the center section of the llama (i.e. the smallest section of the llama).

[IansterGuy]

Just a quick quibble that should be llama not lambaa it's an animal not a greek letter

LOL, thanks I was confused about the spelling from the start due to the silly fonts that almost every computer uses by default. Was it iiama(Iiama) or LLama(llama), so I looked it up saw Lambaa and have had that lingering in my mind as the double letter ever since. I'm now a fan particular fonts like Cambria, Times New Roman, Georgia, Tahoma, and any font with Serif or Mono, but never Sans in the name.

If you take into account the huge size of the Lambaa and Robin in their specifications,

...especially fighters like the Robbin which is almost the same size as the Lambaa, a transport vessel.

What specifications? Looking at the two in blender, the robin appears to be roughly less than half the volume of just the center section of the llama (i.e. the smallest section of the llama).

I looked at the numbers while in game again at the asteroid base, and found it a bit embarrassing that I was off by so much in two or more of my posts, a new Llama's volume is 2000meters^3 and a Robbin is 900meters^3 , but then I found out why I visualized this a bit off. First of all the players ship Lama seems to have 2000meters of not only volume but also cargo space. What? No room for crew, hull supports and equipment? Also when I was looking at the robin model in game the funny camera angles made them seem exactly the same volume, but I found one was closer to the camera when I put on my Stereoscopic 3d glasses. Just kidding I never bothered with using the iz3d driver, rather I simply missed when I tried to lateral thrusted into it, which is a lot easier with the controls I am using now.

I'm going to quote this post and continue it on Getting the size right by exampling the Lambaa

[klauss]

Ay ay ay... I checked the patch, and units.csv there is not properly escaped. What did you use to edit it?

Lines look like:

Admonisher_Milspec_Package__upgrades,,Admonisher_Milspec_Package,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
360,360,,700,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,,,,,0,0,250,,,TRUE,1,,200,120,1,4,50000,50000,50000,55,60,
65,,,,,,,,250,250,FALSE,FALSE,300000000,5,180,10,150,,,,,0,0,0,0,0,
1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1,
1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;
1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,,,{armor04;;}{quadshield08;;}{add_spec_capacitor03;;}{capacitor07;;}{reactor10;;}
{jump_drive;;}{starscanner2;;}{ecm_package02;;},,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

But many editors will be stumped by that, it needs to be quoted everywhere:

"Admonisher_Milspec_Package__upgrades",,"Admonisher_Milspec_Package",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
360,360,,700,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,,,,,0,0,250,,,TRUE,1,,200,120,1,4,50000,50000,50000,55,60,
65,24000,20000,16000,4000,4000,4000,4000,250,250,FALSE,FALSE,300000000,5,180,10,150,,,,,0,0,0,0,0,
"1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1",
"1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1
;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1;1",1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,,,"{armor04;;}{quadshield08;;}{add_spec_capacitor03;;}
{capacitor07;;}{reactor10;;}{jump_drive;;}{starscanner2;;}{ecm_package02;;}",,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,

Is there any chance you can fix that? (if not, I can try, but you should try to edit the files in a way that doesn't undo it afterwards)

Way back, the option read something like "quote all strings" or similar.

[Deus Siddis]

I used microsoft Excel 2003. What editor are you supposed to use?

[klauss]

I never knew what to use.

Open/LibreOffice can be configured not to break it though, so I'd recommend that. Excel should be configurable too.

Thing is, VS and many other editors too, use the first or first few lines of the CSV to identify the dialect (quoting and separator). Done like that (the excel way), the first line needs no quoting, so it won't properly detect quoting. Meaning by row 100 or whatever, where the smicolon-separated lists start appearing, and quoting becomes necessary, overall confusion ensues.

We've had quite a few commits break units.csv because of that. Another reason to stay clear of that format, or make an editor, but that'd be a lot of work.

[Deus Siddis]

I never knew what to use.

Open/LibreOffice can be configured not to break it though, so I'd recommend that. Excel should be configurable too.

Well I found this for excel but it puts quotes around every cell regardless of whether it contains a string. I guess that won't fly either?

[klauss]

I think that would work. It will mean lots of unreadable diffs, but I think it would work.

PS: This modified script would avoid the quotes for numbers and empty strings:

Code: Select all

Sub QuoteCommaExport()
   ' Dimension all variables.
   Dim DestFile As String
   Dim FileNum As Integer
   Dim ColumnCount As Integer
   Dim RowCount As Integer
   Dim CellText as String

   ' Prompt user for destination file name.
   DestFile = InputBox("Enter the destination filename" _
      & Chr(10) & "(with complete path):", "Quote-Comma Exporter")

   ' Obtain next free file handle number.
   FileNum = FreeFile()

   ' Turn error checking off.
   On Error Resume Next

   ' Attempt to open destination file for output.
   Open DestFile For Output As #FileNum

   ' If an error occurs report it and end.
   If Err <> 0 Then
      MsgBox "Cannot open filename " & DestFile
      End
   End If

   ' Turn error checking on.
   On Error GoTo 0

   ' Loop for each row in selection.
   For RowCount = 1 To Selection.Rows.Count

      ' Loop for each column in selection.
      For ColumnCount = 1 To Selection.Columns.Count

         CellText = Selection.Cells(RowCount, _
            ColumnCount).Text

         if IsNumeric(CellText) Or CellText = "" Or UCase(CellText) = "TRUE" Or UCase(CellText) = "FALSE" Then
             ' Write current cell's text to file without quotation marks.
             Print #FileNum, CellText;
         Else
             ' Write current cell's text to file with quotation marks.
             Print #FileNum, """" & CellText & """";
         End If

         ' Check if cell is in last column.
         If ColumnCount = Selection.Columns.Count Then
            ' If so, then write a blank line.
            Print #FileNum,
         Else
            ' Otherwise, write a comma.
            Print #FileNum, ",";
         End If
      ' Start next iteration of ColumnCount loop.
      Next ColumnCount
   ' Start next iteration of RowCount loop.
   Next RowCount

   ' Close destination file.
   Close #FileNum
End Sub

[Deus Siddis]

Your script looks like an improvement but it is still quoting boolean values, i.e. "TRUE", "FALSE".

[klauss]

Your script looks like an improvement but it is still quoting boolean values, i.e. "TRUE", "FALSE".

Edited to whitelist TRUE/FALSE

[Deus Siddis]

Thanks Klauss, I'll finish up work on angular acceleration and then post the properly exported csv.

[Deus Siddis]

Here's the physics rebalance, both linear and angular accelerations reduced along with tweaks to the governors. It looks like your script is working well too; as far as I can tell it is now in the same flavor of CSV format that VS uses.

[IansterGuy]

Here's the physics rebalance, both linear and angular accelerations reduced along with tweaks to the governors. It looks like your script is working well too; as far as I can tell it is now in the same flavor of CSV format that VS uses.

I played the patch and found the angular acceleration really makes it come together as fun combat. No more sudden unnatural turns of the AI. I think this could work, somehow the size of the ships seem more apparent now.

[Deus Siddis]

The whole FTL thing is interesting and I have some thoughts I'd like to add.

But first can we merge it into the VS physics vs "real" physics thread? Replacing SPEC is out of the scope of this thread since it is a big fundamental change that won't affect 'normal' ship physics. It will take a major overhaul of engine features in C++, whereas this thread is more about balancing via content and python changes with the existing engine.

[safemode]

I can move posts when I get home.

However, we could test gameplay out with spec mostly removed from gameplay without changing anything but some unit locations and Python. We could see what kind of game we would have with almost everything revolving around the wormholes.

[klauss]

Here's the physics rebalance, both linear and angular accelerations reduced along with tweaks to the governors. It looks like your script is working well too; as far as I can tell it is now in the same flavor of CSV format that VS uses.

I'm testing it. It feels really different. I'll test it some more before I commit... I'm not sure I like it yet. It feels so different, that I think I do, but I'll have to start a new game from scratch and test its playability.

PS: You can actually see fighters now... cool...

[klauss]

Um... oceanic planets (atlantis to be more precise) seem to have no upgrades after the units.csv patch.

It's probably not the only one.

PS: It seems long cell values have been truncated... not sure whether it's the script or excel itself...

[Deus Siddis]

I'm testing it. It feels really different. I'll test it some more before I commit... I'm not sure I like it yet. It feels so different, that I think I do, but I'll have to start a new game from scratch and test its playability.

PS: You can actually see fighters now... cool...

Looking forward to your feedback.

Um... oceanic planets (atlantis to be more precise) seem to have no upgrades after the units.csv patch.
It's probably not the only one.
PS: It seems long cell values have been truncated... not sure whether it's the script or excel itself...

Damn, it's the script. Before export lots of stuff shows up in excel but after export there's a very truncated list of available goods for oceanic.

[klauss]

Do you see the full imports list in Excel? (because I don't see anything in the script that could be truncating it)

[Deus Siddis]

This is what I have in the Cargo_Import cell for ocean_planets in Excel:

Code: Select all

{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Domestic;1;.1;1000;.100000000000023}{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Electronics;1;.1;1000;.1}{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Luxury;1;.1;10;.1}{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Personal;1;.1;1000;.1}{Contraband/Aera;1;.1;10;.1}{Contraband/Confed;1;.1;10;.1}{Contraband/Rlaan;1;.1;10;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Agricultural;1;.1;10;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Construction;1;.1;10;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Recycled_Products;1;.1;10000;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Xenoforming;1;.1;10;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Aera;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Confed;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Generic;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Rlaan;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Life-forms;1;.1;1000;.1}{Natural_Products/Liquor/Confed;1;.1;100;.1}{Natural_Products/Liquor/Uln;1;.1;100;.1}{Natural_Products/Liquor;.9;.1;200;400}{Natural_Products/Plant_Products;1;.1;10;.1}{Natural_Products/Renewable_Resources;1;.1;10000;.1}{Raw_Materials/Gases;1;.1;100000;.1}{Raw_Materials/Hydrocarbons;1;.1;20000;.2}{Raw_Materials/Metals;6;.7;-100;300}{Raw_Materials/Ores;5;.4;-1000;2000}{Refined_Materials/Alloys/Aera;10;.3;-100;150}{Refined_Materials/Alloys/Confed;3;.1;100;45}{Refined_Materials/Alloys/Rlaan;2;.1;10;15}{Refined_Materials/Precious_Metals;3;.1;10;12}{Refined_Materials/Purified_and_Enhanced_Materials;1;.1;10;.1}{Refined_Materials/Radioactive_Metals;1;.1;100;.1}{Research;11;.4;-10;13}{Specialty_Goods/Augmentation;1;.1;-3;5}{Specialty_Goods/Entertainment;1;.2;100;34}{Specialty_Goods/Medical;1.25;.2;80;120}{Specialty_Goods/Pharmaceutical;1;.2;4;5}{starships/Andolian/Medium;1;;;5}{starships/Hunter/Light;1;;;5}{starships/Merchant/Light;1;;;5}{starships/Merchant/Medium;1;;;5}{starships/Regional_Guard/Light;1;;;5}{upgrades/Ammunition/Confed;1;.1;100;280}{upgrades/Ammunition/Common;1;.1;200;280}{upgrades/Ammunition/Uncommon;2;.1;60;180}{upgrades/Ammunition/Rlaan;6;.7;-10;28}{upgrades/Ammunition/Aera;13;.7;-10;28}{upgrades/Armor;1;.1;10;5}{upgrades/Capacitors/Standard;1;.1;10;5}{upgrades/Cargo;1;.1;2;1}{upgrades/ECM_Systems;1;.1;6;3}{upgrades/Jump_Drives;1;.1;4;2}{upgrades/Overdrive;1;.1;3;2}{upgrades/Passenger_Quarters;1;.1;10;2}{upgrades/Reactors/Standard;1;.1;10;5}{upgrades/Sensors/Confed;1;.1;6;5}{upgrades/Sensors/Common;1;.1;10;5}{upgrades/Shady_Mechanic;1;.1;-2;5}{upgrades/Shield_Systems/Standard_Dual_Shields;1;.1;20;5}{upgrades/Shield_Systems/Standard_Quad_Shields;1;.1;20;5}{upgrades/SPEC_Capacitors;1;.1;6;2}{upgrades/Weapons/Beam_Arrays_Light;1;.1;;5}{upgrades/Weapons/Beam_Arrays_Medium;1;.1;-3;5}{upgrades/Weapons/Mount_Enhancements;1;.1;-50;51}{upgrades/Weapons/Mounted_Guns_Light;1;.1;;4}{upgrades/Weapons/Mounted_Guns_Medium;1;.1;;3}

I'm fairly certain that should be the full list. And then this is the same cell after running the export macro (script):

Code: Select all

{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Domestic;1;.1;1000;.100000000000023}{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Electronics;1;.1;1000;.1}{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Luxury;1;.1;10;.1}{Consumer_and_Commercial_Goods/Personal;1;.1;1000;.1}{Contraband/Aera;1;.1;10;.1}{Contraband/Confed;1;.1;10;.1}{Contraband/Rlaan;1;.1;10;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Agricultural;1;.1;10;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Construction;1;.1;10;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Recycled_Products;1;.1;10000;.1}{Industrially_Manufactured_Goods/Xenoforming;1;.1;10;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Aera;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Confed;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Generic;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Food/Rlaan;1;.1;10000;.1}{Natural_Products/Life-forms;1;.1;1000;.1}{Natural_Products/Liquor/Confed;1;.1;100;.1}{Natural_Products/Liquor/Uln;1;.1;100;.1}{Natural_Products/Liquor;.9;.1;200;400}{Natural_Products/Plant_Products;1;.1;10;.1}{Natural_Products/Renewable_Resources;1;.1;10000;.1}{Raw_Materials/Gases;1;.1;100000;.1}{Raw_

[log0]

That makes 1024 chars:

Excel Help on "limits" or "specifications" reveals that Excel will allow
32,767 characters to be entered in a cell.

However, it goes on to state that "only 1024 characters will be visible or can
be printed"

To work around this limitation, stick a few ALT + ENTERs in at appropriate
spots, about every 100 characters..

The ALT + ENTER forces a line-feed and expands the 1024 limit.

LOL