Gameplay notes, suggestions and enhancements (VS 4.0.3)

Talk among developers, and propose and discuss general development planning/tackling/etc... feature in this forum.
AeonOfTime
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Post by AeonOfTime »

Any number of ways to make flight more interesting and involving.
I agree completely. Personally I'm not much of a trader, but the possibility to have a look at what's for trade while flying would certainly reconcile me with trading. There are a few things I'd like to add to your list:

* Getting info about events in your vicinity that can have an effect on trade, like a drought on planet X in system X.

* Along the lines of the distress calls you mentioned, add mini-missions like a mercenary challenging you to a little race or dogfight simulation for money... Or even merchants asking you to trade directly in space.

* Space anomalies cropping up accross space, and which you could choose to investigate if you have the right scientific equipment on board. These could then either give you technology or scientific material to trade and even contain precious artefacts that you can use to enhance your ship.

* Shipwrecks! Be able to track down and find ancient ships that can be salvaged entirely or only parts of. You could track them through still functioning beacons on the ship or energy signatures (star trek anyone?).

* Gas clouds: there could be gas clouds with different compositions and which can alter some of your ship's functionality like shield control, comm systems, missile guidance - you would have to plan your trip around these or take the risk to fly through. Some special equipment could diminish/negate some of these effects. And they could be pretty too :)

* Be able to buy treasure maps from guys in bars (pirates! anyone?), which would mark special spots on your starcharts where a shipwreck could be or a special kind of anomaly or whatever

...I've still got a few more ideas, I'll let them ripen :)
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Post by CoffeeBot »

AeonOfTime wrote:* Getting info about events in your vicinity that can have an effect on trade, like a drought on planet X in system X.
Heck yeah. Being an in-game trader by nature, this is EXACTLY what I'm looking for.
AeonOfTime wrote: Or even merchants asking you to trade directly in space.
Or vice-versa. Maybe a mission requires you to fetch some rare (but far from unique) item that would require massive effort. So find where merchants might carry the item, scan their cargo, and try to trade (or forcibly remove :twisted: )
AeonOfTime wrote:* Space anomalies cropping up accross space, and which you could choose to investigate if you have the right scientific equipment on board. These could then either give you technology or scientific material to trade and even contain precious artefacts that you can use to enhance your ship.
Also great. We need more missions that expand beyond the realm of "blow this up," "check out this nav point" and "take item X to location Y." Scientific and other research missions would be great.

I love the stuff you threw out, chuck, about things to do during flight. Awesome ideas.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

AeonOfTime wrote: * Shipwrecks! Be able to track down and find ancient ships that can be salvaged entirely or only parts of. You could track them through still functioning beacons on the ship or energy signatures (star trek anyone?).
There was a thread recently discussing ship repairs, and repair bots, and someone, I can't remember who, offered the idea of necessitating spare parts, in order to do repairs; and that you'd buy spare parts in kits, but if you run out of parts and are in dire need, you could search for shipwrecks and possibly find the needed parts. I thought that was neat.
* Gas clouds: there could be gas clouds with different compositions and which can alter some of your ship's functionality like shield control, comm systems, missile guidance - you would have to plan your trip around these or take the risk to fly through. Some special equipment could diminish/negate some of these effects. And they could be pretty too :)
Sorry, that would ruin the game for me, since I know "gas clouds" in space are extremely thin (a handful of atoms per cubic centimeter), much clearer than the clearest view through the atmosphere by orders of magnitude. The only reason gas nebulas look like clouds through a telescope is that we are looking at dozens of light years of thickness through it. If you were inside a gas nebula, you would not know until your Astronomers got so good and knowledgeable as to be able to detect the fact from some secondary effect. In order to collect gas from a cloud, as in for fuel, you'd build scoops the size of Mars, and fly through the cloud at near the speed of light; then you might be able to fill up a bottle in a month or two. ;-)
* Be able to buy treasure maps from guys in bars (pirates! anyone?), which would mark special spots on your starcharts where a shipwreck could be or a special kind of anomaly or whatever
I actually suggested something pretty similar a few months ago: But maybe it was specific to WCU: That at pirate bases one should be able to buy treasure maps, but that they'd be ancient documents written on PAPER! and using alphanumeric star designations from way back in the third millenium. So you have to figure out what's what. But the thing is, any such piece of paper from back in the 3rd millenium is automatically assumed to mean "treasure", but more often than not, the papers are about anything but "treasures", but rather about curious planets or moons, or, occasionally, about potential spots for inducing the formation of jump-points, or about the presence of archeological finds, or resources.
As I've been saying recently, I think it would be easy to add a third "role" in Vegastrike, besides 'trader' and 'hunter': 'Explorer'. If you specialize your ship and equipment for exploration, you'd probably be interested in "treasure maps" with full awareness of their NOT being treasure maps, but because of their potential for good finds in terms of habitable planets and resource-rich asteroids.
...I've still got a few more ideas, I'll let them ripen :)
I once suggested to Hellcat that there should be GNN missions, to, say, take pictures of a battle or a fleet or some millionaire, or famous privateer in action, whatever. Started as a joke about Papparazzi. Also, if you happen to see some unusual fight, say confeds and insys fighting each other due to some friendly fire escalation, you could snap pictures of it and then bargain with a GNN representative over how much they are worth...
I don't know whether he's planning to do something about it or not, or whether he's forgotten about it. The possibilities are multiplicative there: You could get a reputation faster, or avoid a reputation; you could have a fight with a fleet of a faction and avoid the impact of it on your standing with that faction as long as you a) destroy all the ships, b) kill all the ejected pilots, and c) make sure there was no gnn snapping pictures around. If you know someone is a double agent, and you have pictures to prove it, you can blackmail him.
If you get too much of a reputation, you might get paparazzi following you around; but not too many factions hate them, so if you kill them it may get you in trouble. You'd wind up trying to predict and affect the presence or absence of news media depending on the mission you're doing; and in the overall, trying to avoid excessive notoriety. One strategy would be to become, oneself, a reliable gnn contributor, so as to make it a redundant option for them to send reporters to wherever you're going... :-)
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Post by dandandaman »

chuck_starchaser wrote:and that, therefore, the sky should seem to compress to a dot in front of you. But this would be a Newtonian way to look at it. According to Relativity, the speed, and therefore direction, you see photons coming from is the same for any moving frame of reference.
Now that's some bad logic and you know it :-P As a matter of fact the apparent direction, for an observer moving at a considerable fraction of the speed of light, does change ... the directions compresses to two 'poles' along the length of travel, the one in front blue-shifted, the one behind red-shifted :-)

But this is only up till the speed of light, without SPEC ;-) It shouldn't limit what we want to do with neat graphical bits for spec flight :-)

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Post by chuck_starchaser »

dandandaman wrote:Now that's some bad logic and you know it.
Why would I knowingly write bad logic? I think my logic is quite correct in that if you measure c, in any direction, no matter what your frame of reference, you always measure c. So the velocity, and therefore direction, of photons striking your retina should not vary with your speed.
For a very practical proof of the fact: Consider the speed of gravity, or of gravitons, and a planet going in a perfect circular orbit: If it wasn't for special relativity, and if indeed the angle from which the gravitons appear to come at the planet relative to its forward motion vector along the orbit, was less than exactly 90 degrees, the planet would be pulled slightly forward as it moves and *gain* kinetic energy over time. This would violate conservation, and disagrees with observations.
As a matter of fact the apparent direction, for an observer moving at a considerable fraction of the speed of light, does change ... the directions compresses to two 'poles' along the length of travel, the one in front blue-shifted, the one behind red-shifted
Well, I knew some kind of deformation of one's view was due, because I had read about it from authoritative articles many years ago. Such effects are due to "compression" of space-time in some way I'm not sure exactly of. What my "bad" (good) logic did was disprove the *model* for how such a deformation occurs, namely the raindrop model, which I had postulated in my previous sentence. If the actual deformation is as you describe --compression towards both front and rear--, and if you have it from authoritative sources, then that's it, problem solved. I'm sure you agree that compression towards two opposite poles cannot come from a newtonian model such as thinking of photons as raindrops.

R.E. FTL: That's one thing I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. At FTL you might end up with all kinds of strange stuff going on, time going backwards, masses becoming imaginary. I was in fact going to suggest for the purposes of display effects that we pretend Warp 10 maps to c.
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Technical answers to relativistic effects

Post by rubikcube »

Ok, during the days when browsing the forum wasn't so much fun at all, did another quick Wikipedia and internet research on relativistic effects and FTL travel.
  1. Yes, the whole surrounding should seem to bent forward, see [1] for movies and [2] for the formulas. The "raindrops at high velocity" image is really useful for a first explanation.
  2. Everything appears shorter: the surrounding to the ship and the ship to the "stationary" observer, because both are stationary to themselves.
  3. Fun-factor: IF it was possible to do the relativistic effects with OpenGL (I seriously doubt it, and if it works you'll be the heros of), this alone would be wort traveling not via hyperjump but via SPEC from one star system to another!!!1111!!one11!!eleven!!! :D
Now for the more complicated part: How does the SPEC drive influence all this? Research on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light led me to the conclusion that I think we can agree to take the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive]Alcubierre drive[/url] as the actual implementation of the SPEC drive. It seems to be consistent with special and general theory of relativity. Unfortunately it needs exotic matter to produce negative energy, but IMHO we can leave that as a problem for future generations. In this system the spaceship is locally at rest (or moves with v<<c), while space is bent around it. This means that there's no time dilation or mass change! Alcubierre's paper [3] was first published in 1994 and seems to be acknowledged, he now works in Mexico D.F. Maybe someone should write him an email and ask for scientific council? ;-)

By now I've changed my opinion in this way, although it's likely to change again:
  1. No Blue-/Red Shift: Once a photon/wave has passed the front contraction zone, it should have its original properties again, shouldn't it? But what about the energy difference? I'm not really sure about this one.
  2. Special relativistic Aberration: Since we're effectively moving at around light speed, we should see effects as to which photons hit us. So aberration should occur.
  3. Aberration due to bent space-time: I've got no clue as to what effects the bent space on the front and rear would have. But just having any strange effects shouldn't be too wrong, it's a game after all :-)
Ok, now for the promised list of links again:
[1] http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Savage/TEE/gallery.html
[2] http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Savage/TE ... mulas.html
[3] http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0009013
[4] Miguel Alcubierre works here: http://www.nuclecu.unam.mx/~gravit/Gravit/
Last edited by rubikcube on Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by klauss »

I've been thinking about a few things that could be implemented quite easily to enhance the SPEC experience.

a) Link, in a configurable way, cockpit shake with SPEC multiplier.
b) Link, in a configurable way, a forward-looking sphere around the camera, textured in a way to: a) produce some bright sparkling (the energy field producing some neat aberrations), and masking colors (multiplicative blend) pushing the perifery towards black (you can't see towards the sides), the forward side towards blue, and the backwards side towards red. NOTE: not exactly as red/blue shift, but merely suggest that effect by slightly toning the visible periphery. I'll have to code it to make my point, I think. I'll see if it's not too difficult.
c) Link, in a configurable way, the FOV (I know JackS was going to do it, but if I get around to playing with this stuff I might as well). Perhaps adding FOV shaking?

I'll try to have fun with that in the weekend.
I have many things to have fun with. I won't be bored :D
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Post by dandandaman »

Code: Select all

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What rubikcube said ;-)

And....sounds great klauss :-D

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Post by rubikcube »

klauss wrote:masking colors (multiplicative blend) pushing the perifery towards black (you can't see towards the sides), the forward side towards blue, and the backwards side towards red. NOTE: not exactly as red/blue shift, but merely suggest that effect by slightly toning the visible periphery. I'll have to code it to make my point, I think.
No, just show it... 5 minutes with the Gimp gave me this:
http://gimpforum.de/album_page.php?pic_id=1230 :-) And this would really look good in a spaceship :-)
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Post by klauss »

I wasn't referring to the mask, I was referring to what I didn't say because I can't put into words... how it animates... how it maps the SPEC multiplier in such a way that the bigger it gets the smaller the visible area becomes, like it's closing... even that doesn't convey the graphic idea in my mind. That's why I should try to code it. If nobody likes it, it can always be disabled and left in oblivion (I'll enable it :P )
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Post by CubOfJudahsLion »

No Blue-/Red Shift: Once a photon/wave has passed the front contraction zone, it should have its original properties again, shouldn't it? But what about the energy difference? I'm not really sure about this one.
No pretty color tinting? Aww. You could arguably get a blue glow from the Cherenkov radiation. Besides, isn't all travel in VS supposed to depend on wormholes? That alone hints at least at some minimal blueshifting.
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Post by AeonOfTime »

Is there a place other than the wiki where you keep track of ideas for VS? There are a few feature requests in the wiki, but not nearly as much as there have been mentioned in this thread alone - would you mind if I complete that page? I could also have a look in the other threads and try to compile a comprehensive list that the devs could go through when they're in need of inspiration :)

BTW, I think the SPEC drive will be great with what has been proposed. And you guys truly amaze me with all that FTL background :)
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

@Aeon:
Good move.

@Rubikcube:
It would seem to me an Alcubierre drive should shift everything to blue, from back and front.
The official explanation for how the gamma rays from the Big Bang became the microwave background of today is that space has stretched, stretching those waves with it.
If we take that thought to an Alcubierre drive, the drive is compressing space ahead of the ship. The ship rides on this mesa of highly compressed space, then space is stretched back at the back. Whatever light waves climb into this highly compressed mesa of space, arrive there highly compressed, therefore shifted to the blue. As for the back side, I think doppler effect would shift the waves to red, but then space compression would shift them back to blue, so I'm not sure what the final result should be....

As for the speed of the ship relative to the local space, I think it should be as high as possible. An Alcubierre drive, it seems to me, would work as a multiplier, just like the SPEC engine. In fact where the multiplicative factor is equal to the space compression ratio. If you were walking on an elastic strip, and you would compress it 10 times ahead of you, and stretch it again behind you, each step you take forward would be worth 10 normal steps. But you'd still have to walk.

As for the need for "dark matter", I think the current theory is that dark matter is made of concentrated Higgs Bosons, which could conceivably be produced in a particle accelerator.

@klauss:
The FOV needs to be linked to the viewing direction also; if you turn your head to the left it should contract.
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Post by rubikcube »

chuck_starchaser wrote:The official explanation for how the gamma rays from the Big Bang became the microwave background of today is that space has stretched, stretching those waves with it.
Yes it has stretched, but it also still is expanding, which is the reason for the redshift from about 3000K to the 3-4K the background seems to have.
chuck_starchaser wrote:If we take that thought to an Alcubierre drive, the drive is compressing space ahead of the ship. The ship rides on this mesa of highly compressed space, then space is stretched back at the back. Whatever light waves climb into this highly compressed mesa of space, arrive there highly compressed, therefore shifted to the blue. As for the back side, I think doppler effect would shift the waves to red, but then space compression would shift them back to blue, so I'm not sure what the final result should be....
I'm really still wondering what effect a pure compression/expansion of space might have once the light has left the non-flat space. Nonetheless, the space behind the ship is expanded behind the ship, not contracted, so that the ship is traveling in "normal" space (see Fig. 1 in the article).
Abstract from the article on arxiv.org:
It is shown how, within the framework of general relativity and without the introduction of wormholes, it is possible to modify a spacetime in a way that allows a spaceship to travel with an arbitrarily large speed. By a purely local expansion of spacetime behind the spaceship and an opposite contraction in front of it, motion faster than the speed of light as seen by observers outside the disturbed region is possible. The resulting distortion is reminiscent of the “warp driveâ€
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Post by Snafu »

chuck_starchaser wrote:As for the need for "dark matter", I think the current theory is that dark matter is made of concentrated Higgs Bosons, which could conceivably be produced in a particle accelerator.
Possibly not - see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/05 ... ars_found/ & links from there
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

rubikcube wrote:But I'd like to put a stop to realism there :)
Agreed; this is not that important to resolve; I'd say we should have blue shift in front and red shift behind, though, since that's what probably 99% of people would either find intuitive or not care.

@Snafu:
Interesting find. However that doesn't seem related to 'dark matter' unless I'm missing something. If you mean that the hidden quasars could account for the missing mass of the universe; I don't think so. Quasars are rare, and even if ten times as many of them were hiding as are showing, it would probably be spit in the bucket in terms of the mass of the universe.
BTW, mapping of *where* the 'dark matter' is has begun already; I read an article a few months ago about a survey of lensing effects by the Hubble telescope, which found concentrations of dark matter towards the center of a cluster of galaxies. Now we just need to launch a sample-return probe... :D
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Post by jackS »

jackS wrote: I'll post here when I've done so
Simple preliminary testing implementation, binary not updated, you'll have to compile one.
in <physics>:
<var name="warpfov" value="true"/> -- turns feature on/off
<var name="compressionatfront" value="true"/> -- toggles direction of FOV change (shrinking vs. expanding FOV)
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Post by CoffeeBot »

jackS wrote:Simple preliminary testing implementation, binary not updated, you'll have to compile one.
We need a precompiled one :(

I've never been able to run the CVS version. Everything's always very choppy and unplayable. :(
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Adding my voice... I need to re-install Linux before I can compile.
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Space Lanes instead of SPEC

Post by Oblivion »

I hate SPEC travel. It's too d*mn difficult to control. You know SPEC would be absolutely impossible with ships as fragile as the ones in VS. Dust hitting the shield would pulverize you in seconds.
Is there an autopilot hiding somewhere in VS? I want one. I need one.
I always overshoot my target and it's getting iritating. I'm not a programmer (..yet) so I don't know any of the difficulties the developers go through but please. I'm begging you. Make VS life easier.

I'm suggesting in-system space lanes (like in Freelancer... it would not be plagiarism. :) honest!) . Of course you would still be able to travel through SPEC. But SPEC should have speed limits. And it would be better to travel via warp gates/gravity slingshot points/ etc.

The one thing that would make motion more "feel"-able is to make Thruster jets shoot out big gouts of flame AND ambient sounds. I don't really like the idea of doppler effects in games (sounds too difficult to implement), or debris(maybe in a few cases like ship graveyards/junkyards), or Star streaks (especially that, I hate that concept. The streaks get in the way, I hated the streaking effect in Indepence Wars 2, too).

The cockpit shaking in high speeds is good.
The narrowing of vision and blurring is good too.

I'm not complaining i'm just... complaining. :lol: anyway, I'm still a newbie but I hope to get in the action. Where do I sign up with VS? I noticed the graphics needed severe make-overs.

Scientific debates in a simulation game is cool. But please don't totally sacrifice game playability in favor of realism. There are always ways to make a compromise (Make something that looks so cool that everybody will believe - or want to believe - it's real). :)
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Re: Space Lanes instead of SPEC

Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Oblivion wrote:I'm suggesting in-system space lanes (like in Freelancer... it would not be plagiarism. :) honest!) . Of course you would still be able to travel through SPEC. But SPEC should have speed limits.
You know who else likes space lanes in their flight sims? Hitler. Do you really want to be like Hitler?


Please, think of the Jews. Don't talk about space lanes.
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Post by forlarren »

I hearby invoke Godwin's Law.
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Post by cracken »

firstly sorry for ressurecting an old thread. (it's still referred to by the 0.5.0 roadmap) move this if it can go somewhere.
chuck_starchaser wrote:As you approach the speed of light, time appears to go faster and you arrive to your destination very quickly. AT the speed of light, time of travel would be zero to you. If you were riding a photon, from the time it leaves a galaxy far away, to the time it gets here, time would be zero
From the point of view of the observer, somewhat obviously, time would appear to be going at the same rate, the distance would just appear to be less.

As for merely boosting higher frequencies for a blue shift, NO, this would be like turning up the bass on your stereo to make something sound slower.

I think for combat, a "space dust" like idea would be good.

My idea would be to have a grid that was meant to be made by your navigation system or whatever, centered on your current target, so that you can see how you are moving relative to, this would be useful if you were flying sideways and they weren't in your sights etc...

as for geometric distortions caused by speed, is it possible to actually render these? Did this idea eventuate to anything?
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Post by cracken »

firstly sorry for ressurecting an old thread. (it's still referred to by the 0.5.0 roadmap) move this if it can go somewhere.
chuck_starchaser wrote:As you approach the speed of light, time appears to go faster and you arrive to your destination very quickly. AT the speed of light, time of travel would be zero to you. If you were riding a photon, from the time it leaves a galaxy far away, to the time it gets here, time would be zero
From the point of view of the observer, somewhat obviously, time would appear to be going at the same rate, the distance would just appear to be less.

As for merely boosting higher frequencies for a blue shift, NO, this would be like turning up the bass on your stereo to make something sound slower, the frequencies would have to be increased/decreased, otherwise it would just look like shit.

I think for combat, a "space dust" like idea would be good.

My idea would be to have a grid that was meant to be made by your navigation system or whatever, centered on your current target, so that you can see how you are moving relative to, this would be useful if you were flying sideways and they weren't in your sights etc...

as for geometric distortions caused by speed, is it feasible to actually render these? Did this idea eventuate to anything?
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Post by peter »

chuck_starchaser wrote: If we take that thought to an Alcubierre drive, the drive is compressing space ahead of the ship. The ship rides on this mesa of highly compressed space, then space is stretched back at the back. Whatever light waves climb into this highly compressed mesa of space, arrive there highly compressed, therefore shifted to the blue. As for the back side, I think doppler effect would shift the waves to red, but then space compression would shift them back to blue, so I'm not sure what the final result should be....

As for the speed of the ship relative to the local space, I think it should be as high as possible. An Alcubierre drive, it seems to me, would work as a multiplier, just like the SPEC engine. In fact where the multiplicative factor is equal to the space compression ratio. If you were walking on an elastic strip, and you would compress it 10 times ahead of you, and stretch it again behind you, each step you take forward would be worth 10 normal steps. But you'd still have to walk.
That's what I was thinking until I actually read through Alcubierre's paper that someone linked to. I didn't actually grok all the equations for geometry of space and the distortion tensors (I only have a BSc in physics and comp. sci...) but he gives an example of using it, and he's explicit that the ship does _not_ need to be moving relative to ... anything. I guess you kind of take a piece of space and pull it to another location, more like silly putty than an elastic sidewalk.

The example starts on page 6: consider travelling between points A and B in a spaceship. From point A, use your rocket engine to fly a small distance away from A, and then stop. (This is so distorting space doesn't affect A, so e.g. nothing weird happens to a clock at A timing your trip.) Then start warping space so your local coordinate system accelerates wrt. the coordinate system of A and B. At the half way point, reverse the acceleration so you're out of "warp" when you get there. Then fly the rest of the way with your rocket engine again.

This makes sense, because nothing says what should define the reference frame to measure the motion that determines a speed multiplier. (at least I hope it makes sense.)

So this is different from SPEC. It would be too easy if you could SPEC in any direction regardless of your non-SPEC velocity. I guess we'll avoid referencing Alcubierre's paper in fictional explanations of SPEC. :) Still, if you decided to SPEC relative to Alpha Centauri while you were at rest wrt. Sol, well you start to see how it gets weird. This is the sort of thing I can happily ignore while playing Vegastrike in a somewhat Newtonian universe. :P Oh, maybe SPEC somehow pushes against the gravity well of the nearest star? No, that's probably worse than not attempting an explanation, since it just sounds unlikely and wrong.
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"The gods confound the man who first found out how to distinguish the hours!
Confound him, too, who in this place set up a sundial, to cut and hack my day so wretchedly into small pieces!" -- Plautus, 200 BC
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