Scanner Targeting/Search Mode

[ShadowOblivion]

Overview:
This is a request for the development of further functionality of the Scanner device. In addition to the current ability to target a single object, the scanner should be able to passively select, list, and highlight similar targets so the player has that information available to them. The Scanner would also receive additional functionality in the form of being able to run an automated process which finds particular types of objects in the current system.

Explanation:
This feature would add another dimension to scanner type and quality. In essence this feature will increase the number of targets(Secondary) a scanner may pick out in addition to the one being selected(Primary). The Primary target is the one that is shown in the bottom right corner of the HUD. When the player selects a Primary Target, objects of a similar type(such as planets, portals, or hostiles) are targeted and become Secondary Targets, which are displayed above the Main Target graphic, but only about a third as large and perhaps no more than eight or ten at a time. Whether a player may "lock on" these Secondary Targets in addition to the Primary Target, would be up to the quality of the Scanner. Additional color graphics would notify which of the Secondary Targets shown would become the next Main Target upon using a switching key(n, h, etc.), depending on type of object. On the radar, these targets would have some sort of graphics, such as circles or squares, to make it easier for the player to see them.
Another feature to add to the Scanner would be the ability for the scanner to go through in-system objects in an effort to find specific targets that the player is looking for and show them as Tertiary Targets. This would be done in a manner that is similar to the way players do it manually: a)Selection of Target b)Target Search. The player does this by thinking about what they want to find(a), and then looking through the in-system objects using keys such as "t", which may have to take the player through hundreds of objects. This process would become automated, with the player only being required to pull up a dialogue(such as the one shown with SHIFT-M) and select a target type(hostile, planet, cargo, etc.). The rest of the work would be accomplished by the scanner, a single dialogue of the Tertiary Target(the one being looked through, similar to the Main Target, but smaller and separate from the Secondary Targets) would move through all possible targets(whose relevancy and rate of passing would be determined by the quality of the scanner) until a match is found, which is then posted either as another Tertiary or Secondary Target.

Example:
The player is in a battle, and selects the Nearest Hostile Target using the SHIFT-R key. In addition to the Primary Target the player just selected, many other hostiles(depending on level of threat, perhaps) appear as secondary targets that the Main Target switches to after the player is done with the first target.
The player warps into a system, hoping to find some cargo adrift and ripe for the taking. The player pulls up a dialogue and commands the Scanner to look for Cargo while the player goes about his business. After a short while, the scanner posts any results as Tertiary Targets and the player moves in to pick up the find.

[MC707]

Ok what I really liked is the idea of scanning cargo. That brings two (or possibly more) possibilities. One, working as a part or full time homeland security guy or something of the sorts. Two, working part or full time as a Pirate. You can scan cargo and ambush a target. The target has four possibilities. One, throw the cargo and run away. Two, run away with the cargo if the ship is fast enough (I've read lots of ships' info in the wiki). Third, send a distress call to the local homeland security. Or four, arm their guts and pull the trigger in a good dogfight if the ship is descent enough. Only ideas I guess, in the end. Just like yours

[athomic1]

Actually, you already can "scan" a ship's cargo. If you flip through the targeting VDU ('v' key), one of the displays is your target's manifest. You can see what cargo is on any ship, base, or planet in range!

In a sense, it's not really scanning. You don't have to approach any target. Just flip through the VDU, and I'm pretty sure the manifest always matches the actual cargo. It might introduce a touch of realism if this weren't the case. Targets might still report their manifests (or not, for example, if it regards you as hostile or unauthorized), but you would actually need to approach and scan them, as on patrol missions, to verify.

[ShadowOblivion]

In my proposal I did not intend to scan the cargo while it is inside a ship, although if that idea could prove popular... I meant scanning for free floating cargo, not what ships are carrying. I think for realism the player would need to be fairly close to a ship in order to find out what it's carrying. Did you understand that or were you simply expanding on the idea?

[MC707]

Actually, you already can "scan" a ship's cargo. If you flip through the targeting VDU ('v' key), one of the displays is your target's manifest. You can see what cargo is on any ship, base, or planet in range!

In a sense, it's not really scanning. You don't have to approach any target. Just flip through the VDU, and I'm pretty sure the manifest always matches the actual cargo. It might introduce a touch of realism if this weren't the case. Targets might still report their manifests (or not, for example, if it regards you as hostile or unauthorized), but you would actually need to approach and scan them, as on patrol missions, to verify.

Oh yes yes I definitely remember. Good point there.

In my proposal I did not intend to scan the cargo while it is inside a ship, although if that idea could prove popular... I meant scanning for free floating cargo, not what ships are carrying. I think for realism the player would need to be fairly close to a ship in order to find out what it's carrying. Did you understand that or were you simply expanding on the idea?

Yes, scanning cargo floating in space is also a good idea, since pressing a button tons of times 'till the cargo appears doesn't sound too efficient. I expanded the idea, yes. Whilst I was reading, I just thought about that and commented on my thoughts. But yes, your idea sounds nice, too.

[ShadowOblivion]

@MC707: If my writing gets too heavy to understand or becomes difficult to read, please let me know. I want to be sure that I'm getting the right message across. Also, feel free to ask me to explain anything in further detail.

@General:
The Scanning feature of a Scanner would simulate what the player goes through in searching a hard to find object in a system by hitting "t" a bunch of times, and let the player know once something is found.

[MC707]

@MC707: If my writing gets too heavy to understand or becomes difficult to read, please let me know. I want to be sure that I'm getting the right message across. Also, feel free to ask me to explain anything in further detail.

@General:
The Scanning feature of a Scanner would simulate what the player goes through in searching a hard to find object in a system by hitting "t" a bunch of times, and let the player know once something is found.

I understood, indeed. Its just that the idea blasted through my head so I just blazed my reading to post before I forgot the idea. I forgot, though, that scanning cargo in a ship/base/etc can be done already, so that's the reason I just blasted to post.

[denyasis]

I hope you don't mind ShadowOblivion, but may I share with you a possible variation (at least/most) in the way the info is displayed?

I think a tabbed List might be of better value, Preventing clutter and allowing for same functionality descirbed.

Case Study: I-WAR
I-war/I-war2 targeting system was list based. All targets were placed on a list on the HUD and sorted first by type (hostiles at top), then by distance (nearest Hostile was first). The target itself would be in bold/highlighted. This would maintain your secondary/teriary arrangement by having the targets in the list. In addition the list would be scrollable and selectable via keyboard/mouse shortcuts making it easy for the player to find and select targets of instrest.

The advantage of this system would be reduced screen clutter while still providing a quick situational assessment.

For example - the player could enter a system and immediately see a group of hostiles in radar range, find their exact range, type, and faction allegiance. This allows the player to quickly analze the situation and determine if he/she wants to fight, run, etc.

Drawback: Scope
Case Study: X
The X series uses a similar list system in its sector maps and highlights the primary problem with a list that would occur with VS. While I-war was small in scope with relatively few targets and only a few flavours (enemy, non-enemy, container), the X list was quickly over whelmed by hundreds of ships and varying types. VS would have the same problem.

Solution:
In stead of using one list containing all targets, Multiple lists can be used containing certian types of targets. For example, all Hostiles could be on one list, while navigation objects would be on another, and the results of your search function would be in a third. This would prevent overload by only showing the type of target you want to see as they are automatically placed in the proper list when they enter scanner range.

For example, a simple mock up (I think making the background semi-transparent would be better - but I have no clue how to do that in paint, sorry):




Other tabs for say mission targets, the search funtion, etc could also in there, I just got a little lazy, sorry. The targeting brackets would correspond to the tab that is brought up, highlighting the secondary targets.

Scanner quality could affect the tabs available. A very low quality scanner might just give Hostile, Non-hostile, and Objects, with everything sorted into those three. A high quality scanner will give much more (factions, species/nations, etc)! Of course, the current targeting functionality of VS would always be available.

I love your idea ShadowOblivion, and I think this would provide the information you want with your system, just in a more compact space on the HUD/Screen.

Lastly a final example:
Player specs across a system. The hostile tab blinks, so the player brings it up (target nearest hostile or some other button) and finds 3 pirate plowshares only a short distance away. After blowing up said pirates, our player opens our "objects" tab listing a trove of cargo containers where our enemy plowshares once were. In the midst of collecting the goods, the hostile tab blinks again. Opening it shows a large flight of hyenas getting closer. Our player, not wanting to fight while laden down, opens the navigation tab, selects the nearest planet and Specs away to safe harbor.

Hope you like!
Peace!

[ShadowOblivion]

@denyasis:
That sounds like a good idea! That would definitely be useful, especially if we add color-coding to the different entities in the lists and create a key to hide the list when we don't need it. Thanks for taking the time to type up that lengthy and detailed response!

[loki1950]

Just a caution that this will not be possible with the current GUI API as it is very primitive but will be with the move to Ogre 3D and CEGUI.

Enjoy the Choice

[TBeholder]

All targets were placed on a list on the HUD and sorted first by type (hostiles at top), then by distance (nearest Hostile was first).

This also touches a non-radar subject: targets should be not just "hostile", but given "enable/disable attack" status, because as it is, it gives this: you see some ship which doesn't attack you yet, try to soothe hot uln boys, and the next moment your turret AI proceeds to blast them, and the only way to prevent this is to turn it off and become completely point-defenceless. I would even propose individual target priority adjustment (applied to the basic priority from data/ai/VegaPriorities.csv, and maybe even replacement priorities set), so that AI would swat a missile when there's any, and process the target you deem the most dangerous otherwise.

Other tabs for say mission targets, the search funtion, etc could also in there, I just got a little lazy, sorry. The targeting brackets would correspond to the tab that is brought up, highlighting the secondary targets.

Scanner quality could affect the tabs available. A very low quality scanner might just give Hostile, Non-hostile, and Objects, with everything sorted into those three. A high quality scanner will give much more (factions, species/nations, etc)! Of course, the current targeting functionality of VS would always be available.

It looks like a sort of Fake Difficulty, a-la Privateer where upgrade would add not as much to the the performance as to the ergonomics.

Why wouldn't we recollect what's it all about? Radar basically has three different tasks: detection (which as such allows acquisition and basic tracking of objects), identification (this involves resolving details or fine spectral/phase analysis) and pinpointing (battle tracking and maneuver positioning). To the point that real systems have separate Acquisition and Tracking radars. External functions add navigation (if you know local planetoids' orbits, you'll have good idea which points are them even beyond resolution limits) and identification signals (ol' good friend-or-foe).
So, while information ships give away ("I am ID #091497GR6 by Shaper registry") is available without anything better than a basic radio communication, but identification of non-responding targets seems to be the hardest problem. And without it, you have only "if it's small and moves in your direction with accelerations more than 10g, it's likely to be a missile", and every piece of debris or iron-nickel ore, missile out of fuel, launching container and pirate ship are the same - nameless points. Naturally, optical sensors could complement this, but they have their limits too.
Also, discerning subunits as such (let alone tracking them) could be a big problem. And without this capability the only ways to declaw a capship are manual aiming at suspect bumps and spraying small projectiles coated with the hope that some of them will hit small vulnerable things and not just main armor.
As to the cargo, i would assume that "smart" radar capable of advanced spectral analysis would identify a box of diesel generators much like it would identify a turret - provided cargo isn't in completely radio-shielded hold, which is quite possible, but would not discern between a box of salt and a box of exotic organic substance. Otherwise it's either believe ship's manifest or carry out an inspection.

[denyasis]

It looks like a sort of Fake Difficulty, a-la Privateer where upgrade would add not as much to the the performance as to the ergonomics

Come to think of it - I agree totally! We shouldn't make the information gathering parts of the game so complicated, they are frustrating. I kinda liken it to the black/White versus color radar in VS and Priv. What?! no Color?!? hundreds of years in teh future?!? LoL

This also touches a non-radar subject: targets should be not just "hostile", but given "enable/disable attack" status, because as it is, it gives this: you see some ship which doesn't attack you yet, try to soothe hot uln boys, and the next moment your turret AI proceeds to blast them, and the only way to prevent this is to turn it off and become completely point-defenceless. I would even propose individual target priority adjustment (applied to the basic priority from data/ai/VegaPriorities.csv, and maybe even replacement priorities set), so that AI would swat a missile when there's any, and process the target you deem the most dangerous otherwise.

The X series actually has prolly the feature you are looking for here. In VS terms - Essentially Turret hostility would be faction based. A list of factions could be presented and the player would set the appropriate faction as {enemy}, {neutral}, or {friendly}, overriding whatever the actual relationship is. This would keep pointdefense up (always shooting incomming missles, etc), while letting you ignore or persue mercilessly whatever faction you choose.

[TBeholder]

Come to think of it - I agree totally! We shouldn't make the information gathering parts of the game so complicated, they are frustrating.

Basically, whatever has a transponder should be identified at will even if it's far beyond resolution. Whatever fails to self-identify but proven it can acceletrate should be marked as potentially dangerous. BTW, in restricted areas such things should be blasted rather quickly. Everything without life signs are generic inert objects until studied.
Also, if advanced radars would be radio-spectrally aware, they could use this not just for identification, but for extra specific sensitivity feature: you want to find one Hyena, radar knows the set of specific frequencies and focuses on them in scanning, so Hyena becomes more noticeable. I.e. activate search mode, choose one known type of object, and radar raises its specific sensitivity for desired target at the expense of all others. Now that's more than eye-candy.

In VS terms - Essentially Turret hostility would be faction based. A list of factions could be presented and the player would set the appropriate faction as {enemy}, {neutral}, or {friendly}, overriding whatever the actual relationship is. This would keep pointdefense up (always shooting incomming missles, etc), while letting you ignore or persue mercilessly whatever faction you choose.

Ah, i'll reformulate it more implementation-wise: now VS have a table of how factions' relation to player and custom values for ships (that's what improved when player chats with them). Player must be able to setup a similar list of player's own relationship values at will - being unable to do so just looks weird.

[denyasis]

yeah - that's exactly what I meant with the turrets - Thanks for explaining it more clearly. The player's setting would override the way the Turret AI identifies hostiles, butwouldn't actually change the realtionship. Setting say Aera to friendly, the Turret would see Area as friends even if you are worst of enemies.

Also, if advanced radars would be radio-spectrally aware, they could use this not just for identification, but for extra specific sensitivity feature: you want to find one Hyena, radar knows the set of specific frequencies and focuses on them in scanning, so Hyena becomes more noticeable. I.e. activate search mode, choose one known type of object, and radar raises its specific sensitivity for desired target at the expense of all others. Now that's more than eye-candy

I think that would work well ShadowOblivions original search funtion. It may not be eye candy though. Telling the scanner to search for plowshares and generating a list of plowshares in the search tab might be super useful if you are a pirate Same thing if you are a plowshare looking for hyenas in order to plot the safest route.