HUD simulates "Space debris"

Kaneda · Post by **Kaneda** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:16 pm

Hi,

i didn't find this idea in the list of feature requests, so here it is:

How about a software upgrade for the HUD which shows dots flying by so that one can have a feeling for the speed? The dots could be generated randomly or in form of a 3D-grid. Also this virtual space debris could change it's density depending on the speed of the craft, like using a dense grid at low speeds and decreasing this density at every speed-factor of 10. With the grid-density displaying on the HUD, this could give a good feeling of the speed without being unrealistic

Post by **klauss** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:29 pm

It was discussed, and to make it non-non-realistic (ie: realistic), the dots should look clearly artificial. So it's not true debris. It's a navigational aid. right?

Kaneda · Post by **Kaneda** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:57 pm

Yeah, that's the idea, and to include it as buyable upgrade would make it really interesting

About 10 years ago, i wrote my own little space-sim (nothing big) and incorporated a dot-grid to be able to estimate my speed, and it looked really good. At low speed, i had a dot every 1000 m in each direction/dimension, and those were connected by dots every 100 m. Also the dots became transparent with distance.

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:57 pm

mm.. if they some how warped within gravity wells.. it might make an interesting feature (seeing the texture of space) since with SPEC you can obviously 'map' the texture by how much SPEC freedom you have

the warping might be.. a slight spiraling in towards the gravity well.. and the closer it gets, the denser the dots? (a false but curious assumption of in higher gravity wells, space contracts and contorts.. meaning it takes spec longer to pass over the same 'acual' distance because its passing over far more 'spacial surface'

hee fake science wins!)

rivalin · Post by **rivalin** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:59 pm

If you want to see the perfect implementation of this feature just check out I-WAR 2, it's a great idea, especially as Vegastrike often feels like you're piloting a static camera and that ships and planets move towards you while you stay still, there's normally no sense of speed at all.

>>cue someone complaining about the relativity of speed in space and such a feature being unrealistic.

mortaneous · Post by **mortaneous** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:17 pm

Actually, that's not far off from a navigational aid that I mentioned a while ago... though the way I had thought of would be showing your ship's projected course due to maneuvering and inertial effects as a "tunnel" of dots or squares extending from the front of the ship.

Either form of navigational aid would be useful, and given the other HUD elements, not too unrealistic for an upgrade (especially for larger ships).

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:40 pm

i think its a definate necessity.. though likely speed will be changed in the future, more balanced.. the way it is now, is kinda.. haphazard.. you can accelerate to C far FAR too fast..

cap601 · Post by **cap601** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:41 am

Personally I can't see the need for any of these speed indicators. The only speeds that matter are those relative to other objects which can be judged already. The reason for a lack of "feel" of speed is the lack of a moving background (except near bases) but is that really needed?

One thing that has been mentioned here is the need for an indication of the direction of your current velocity. We really need an HUD indicator showing this direction and its opposite (and possibly perpendicular to it) to help manoeuvring.

Neskiairti wrote:i think its a definite necessity.. though likely speed will be changed in the future, more balanced.. the way it is now, is kinda.. haphazard.. you can accelerate to C far FAR too fast...

Outside of SPEC speeds are pretty balanced and you can't easily reach c. The "acceleration" to c (and beyond) when engaging SPEC isn't actually a change in speed (it's meant to be a change in distance) and is needed to allow travel to take a reasonable amount of time.

Kaneda · Post by **Kaneda** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:43 am

Yes, I-War II was the only game i know to implement such a feature. But it was always in the Spaceship and not a system you could buy. Also, it only projected random dots, but i think dots with geometrical alignement look way cooler, especially the 3D-grid

Kaneda · Post by **Kaneda** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:52 am

cap601,

i think as long as these speed-indicators are optional systems you can buy (or at least turn on and off), there should be no problem, as everyone could use them if they want, or not. Technically it is definitely doable in a spaceship which has some sort of universal positioning system.

The HUD indicator showing the direction of the ship is a must, IMO. All modern jet-fighters have such an indicator, and for a good reason.

Moe479 · Post by **Moe479** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:24 pm

the player should be able to switch on and of, if remeber right that was a part of the hud in iwar2 and helps alot manouvering in areas where no fixed objects like planets in view or to far away to notice the movement ...

Post by **klauss** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:43 pm

I had done some rough velocity vector indicator that got lost before I could commit it

- but it was easy, I can do it again.

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:45 pm

I dunno, the speeds seemed kinda wonky to me when I last gave it a try.. 0 to 99.0 C on my way from planet to base...

thats just a bit nuts.. and I know the conscept behind SPEC.. but relative speed is relative speed none the less

personally, id like to see more 'current realism' in the speeds.. in system drive should be fairly slow.. faster than it is in real life of course.. (dont feel like taking months to get to mars thank you very much

) but.. not a minute to get from the sun to pluto.

I am hoping system to system travel is included, not just jump nodes.. which would make spec seem more interesting.. taking 10 minutes to leave the system, and get up to max speed then decelerating at the optimum point on the other end of the trajectory

Post by **klauss** » Wed May 21, 2008 6:29 pm

It could be a mod, but VS is kind of supposed to be a fast-pace game. It's always been so, and people who enjoy VS seem to always think so.

There are people looking into more realistic mods for VS. I couldn't point one, but I think there are some. I too would like it if travel was a bit more involved. Not always fighting too - make the act of travelling interesting, perhaps making the views nice, perhaps making it more involved than "N N N A - wait 10s - A D".

Post by **Deus Siddis** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:49 pm

klauss wrote:There are people looking into more realistic mods for VS. I couldn't point one, but I think there are some. I too would like it if travel was a bit more involved. Not always fighting too - make the act of travelling interesting, perhaps making the views nice, perhaps making it more involved than "N N N A - wait 10s - A D".

This could work, but capital ships like the clydesdale would have to be made alot more responsive in their maneuvering and missions would have to pay ALOT more. It is okay for a run to take 20 minutes of RL to complete if you get payed 200,00 - 500,000.

To make the travel interesting on its own, you'd need to see the effect of gravity pulling on your ship, much larger and more common nebulae and asteroid fields/belts and finally, of course, seamless planetary flight. Then you are sailing across the tempestuous sea of space, but it will be alot of time and work before VS gets that far.

Back on topic, I for one don't really like the grid idea-- looks too artificial and distracting. I would really prefer rare and random pieces of very small "dust" floating by. Much smaller and fewer than those in privateer remake, which to me used too much of a new-jersey-launched-into-space-and-exploded look to its space particles. Maybe something closer to colony wars, only sparser still.

bgaskey · Post by **bgaskey** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:30 pm

you'd need to see the effect of gravity pulling on your ship,

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed above, however, the pull of gravity would have little effect in space, as on the Earth's surface, objects only accelerate at 10m/s^2 and it decreases proportionally with the square of distance, so it would not be very noticeable compared to the 10G+ accelerations of faster ships.

I really do like the idea of something flying by to indicate velocity though, although travelling at the SPEC max of 97c, you wouldn't be able to see any of it

Post by **klauss** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:38 am

Ya, we've discussed that before as well. For gravity to make any difference in VS, ship acceleration would have to get tuned to more realistic values, either a fraction of a G or very limited fuel (so you can't thrust all the time). Right now ships simply have enough power to counteract gravity at all times, and the governor (the ships computer) would do exactly that. To let you fly in straight lines. Gravity would be there only to complicate calculations, but wouldn't make a shred of a difference to gameplay.

The first is quite a modern concept, since low-thrust engines are a thing of modern times (ion-ish propulsion), and the second way is more elite-like. I personally got really surprised in Elite when I couldn't reach Alpha Centauri! (my ship didn't have big enough fuel tanks!).

If we want to be novel, I'd go for low-thrust engines. It is a novel concept in a game. But it's a dangerous one too: imagine dogfighting with low-thrust engines. It has the potential to go awfully wrong.

The elite way is simply safer, but it's also a design decision the heads of VS have to make.

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Thu May 22, 2008 6:36 pm

well... there can always be multiple forms of engines.. some more efficient than others..

insystem drives.. 'slow' a few hundred meters per second.. but unlimited fule.. for whatever reason, maybe it just drains energy from the solar wind..

A jump drive, uses very little energy comparatively.. skips across space in seconds..

SPEC as it is now, should burn fuel en mass.. the higher the multiplier, the faster it burns fuel.. (and you could choose the multiplier like you choose to increase or decrease your speed) there of course would be an optimal speed.. but it would be far more efficient than simple low thrust..

Fusion engine would be one of the most efficient and high thrust of the fule engines.. and could go down from there.. needing larger and larger fuel tanks to get farther..

or at least refilling.

sure its a fast paced game... when your dog fighting.. but space is vast..

Post by **Deus Siddis** » Thu May 22, 2008 7:49 pm

Gravity would not have a noticeable influence on interceptor or fighters, save for in proximity to gas giants, yes. But assault and bomber craft like pacifiers and goddards would be affected and craft larger still like mules, oxen or clydesdales could be influenced in a big way by gravity.

Seamless planetary flight would also make gravity have a significant influence, as getting closer to planets would be a bigger part of the game. It would also add fluid friction to the mix which one might consider an indirect influence of gravity in that more gravity means more atmospheric density which should affect friction. Some of the denser nebulae might have a similar friction effect as well.

bgaskey · Post by **bgaskey** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:23 pm

Gravity accelerates all objects equally (drop a feather and an iron weight in vacuum and they land at the same time) so the only reason it would have an effect on larger craft is because they are inherently slower. However, it still wouldn't make a difference unless they were very close to the ground (i.e. seamless planetary flight

)

Shouldn't speccing without accelerating in real space not take any fuel at all except the reactor draw from the power consumption, because the spec drive just warps space-time around you rather than actually accelerating your ship.

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:21 am

well.. I consider it like.. your using an extra powerful generator to produce such a tremendously powerful field

Post by **Deus Siddis** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:56 pm

bgaskey wrote:Gravity accelerates all objects equally (drop a feather and an iron weight in vacuum and they land at the same time) so the only reason it would have an effect on larger craft is because they are inherently slower.

Aye, and that was the only reason I was refering to. But it is also a very effective reason. If you look at the acceleration rates for the various craft, you will see a big difference between the light and heavy ships.

However, it still wouldn't make a difference unless they were very close to the ground (i.e. seamless planetary flight )

Again, it depends on the size of the planet. It also depends on how exactly one defines 'close to the ground'. But yes, then you have seamless planetary flight too.

Neskiairti wrote:well.. I consider it like.. your using an extra powerful generator to produce such a tremendously powerful field

Then this high-energy anti-gravity is going to draw power from someplace, slowing down weapon refire, shield regeneration or acceleration when you turn it on (which you would only need to do when close to a gravity well). Kind of like what spec or cloaking does to your shields.

mortaneous · Post by **mortaneous** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:04 pm

It could draw power from someplace already available: one of the capacitor banks.
All jump-capable ships have 3 capacitor banks, Spec, FTL, and Main.
Main powers weapons & cloak, FTL powers Jump travel, and Spec powers Spec travel. All are charged by the main reactor, which consumes the ship's fuel.
(I may have transposed FTL/Spec cap uses, they have been reversed in-game for a long time)

As far as maintaining your course against gravity, unless you're really close to a planet, trajectory is maintained using your engines and thrusters under the guidance of the flight control computer. Any ship with a thrust rating >(planet's local gravity) could even hover over the planet surface at sub-orbital altitudes without need for some sort of anti-grav device. The ships that would need it are the low power/weight ratio cargo haulers and capships, or smaller craft that would be working inside the atmosphere of very high-gravity worlds.

bgaskey · Post by **bgaskey** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:21 am

I think the spec drive and jump drive both draw from the blue capacitor. Maybe I'm wrong (you never see drain from just speccing around) but thats how I interpret it.

iaindaddy · Post by **iaindaddy** » Sat May 31, 2008 9:05 am

Personally I like the dust floating around and giving a sense of movement although I do remember trying to sleep after a day of playing Elite and still seeing the dots float around on the inside of my eyelids

There is a lot wrong with the visual movement indicators at the moment.... If it is dust that gets drawn out when you travel at light speed then why is it behind planets? If it is stars then why are the planets not also stretched? And why do you not get to the destination before you see that you get there?

Until we can get 17G pushing you back into your chair when you crank up the engines (any idea of the programing overheads of that one?) then the game will never be anything like the real thing... as Scotty would say "You canna defy the laws of physics captain".

It's all a representation... me, I want the space dust.

As for the objects in space having a "gravitational" effect on an object traveling at light speed... well ... the same gravitational effect influences light... so... we just point our ship in the direction that the object looks like it is... we then get pulled off course and back in line with the object... simple!

All the best

Iain