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Quick question or two. SVN include autodock yet or do I have to wait for a stable release? How many stations are you up to?

travists wrote:Quick question or two. SVN include autodock yet or do I have to wait for a stable release?

I have not committed the code yet. I have made all the agreed changes, but I need to do more testing before I commit. From time to time the ship stops at a waypoint and stays there. I suspect that this is due to an inaccurate calculation in the underlying ship-turning code.

travists wrote:How many stations are you up to?

I have not had the time to add more stations yet, nor have I determined which stations should be auto-dockable and which should not be.

Thanks for the update! I think fighterbases, and starfortreses would have the backing to have that kind of tech. Mining bases with the varity of ships and load status would likely invest in such to keep colistions to a minimum. Though the most helpfull ones are the more complex landing routs. I don't know how I can be of help. But if I can, let me know!

The auto docking script has been committed to svn now.

The code is still considered experimental, and should be enabled in the vegastrike.config file as described earlier in this thread.

Presently, auto-docking will only work with planets. I plan to add auto-dockable ports to various stations in the near future.

Yey!

Be certain to add the relevant config options to the file (even if disabled), so users know they have the option to change it.

Ah, the sweet sound of progress.

If you have auto-docked at a docking port inside the station, then it can be tricky to navigate out of there when you undock. I have extended the AutoDocking script to do this for you.

I have added auto-dockable ports at the Confed Starfortress, Rlaan Starfortress, and Rlaan Fighter Barracks.

Breese, you have me salivating for more! Even at planets it's a nice feature. There seemes to be a range thing (I think I remember somewhere in this thread about 1000 m), anyway is there a way to have an "autodock ready/avalible" message pop up? Thanks and keep up the good work!

travists wrote:Breese, you have me salivating for more! Even at planets it's a nice feature. There seemes to be a range thing (I think I remember somewhere in this thread about 1000 m)

The docking port of a planet is 20% bigger than the planet.

travists wrote:anyway is there a way to have an "autodock ready/avalible" message pop up?

Sure, I just added it to svn.

Currently it just displays "ON" next to the DOCK field, when you can activate the autodocker.

Better suggestions are welcome. Keep the following constaints in mind:

The AUTO field displays "ACTIVE" when a script (e.g the autopilot or the autodocker) has taken over navigation of your ship.

The DOCK field displays "-" (when no target is selected), "TOO FAR" (self-explanatory), and "READY" (when you are inside the docking port).

Would "Auto Avalible" be to long? Great to hear it was that easy!

travists wrote:Would "Auto Avalible" be to long? Great to hear it was that easy!

"AUTO READY" will fit.

Sure, but it looks like I'll have to wait for the next exe. It is a nice feature though!

The autodocking code does not compile on OSX 10.5 with Xcode 3.1.4 (gcc 4.0.1, Apple build 5493). See http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 48#p122548

shenle wrote:The autodocking code does not compile on OSX 10.5 with Xcode 3.1.4 (gcc 4.0.1, Apple build 5493). See http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 48#p122548

Sorry, I did not notice this problem until now. I have committed a fix.

Just out of curiosity, what version of g++ is your Xcode using?

g++ --version
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1 (GCC) 4.0.1 (Apple Inc. build 5493)
Copyright (C) 2005 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

Getting time to test the autodocker for the first time...

Hmm, autodocking to fighter barracks is interesting... but even more interesting is the amount of bumping that you get when you launch afterwards, which turns all the base's defenses on and gets you quickly liquidated. I don't remember that happening before.

Here's a further refinement suggestion too: could we have the autopilot drop you within autodocking range of the nav target? So you don't have to maneuver extra before engaging the autodocker. Call it the lazy ass mod.

shenle wrote:Here's a further refinement suggestion too: could we have the autopilot drop you within autodocking range of the nav target? So you don't have to maneuver extra before engaging the autodocker. Call it the lazy ass mod.

I too think that would be nice, but part of what we have here is a bit of a compromise. There has been one vocal faction that opposes most if not all automation. I, for one, would not mind it if there was an option to select a destination in the navcomp and all jumps and in-systems flight are handled automatically, only requiring pilot interaction for: requesting docking, asteroid/ring navigation, combat, etc. Perhaps a multi-layered autopilot system in setup?

travists wrote: I too think that would be nice, but part of what we have here is a bit of a compromise. There has been one vocal faction that opposes most if not all automation.

I think at this point, with autopilot plus autodock, there isn't much point in having a small buffer of manual flight between the two modes when only minor attention is needed from the player anyway for this short sequence.

A better present compromise or solution is to just have some stations auto dock enabled and others (perhaps less developed stations) require manual docking. (Though autodocking will be universally, for all docking sites, useful for the AI which badly needs it).

And moving forward, we should look for and implement gameplay features that make navigation and spaceflight more engaging and less monotonous, so that 80% of the time there isn't any desire to turn on an autopilot and walk away from the game.

Deus Siddis wrote:And moving forward, we should look for and implement gameplay features that make navigation and spaceflight more engaging and less monotonous, so that 80% of the time there isn't any desire to turn on an autopilot and walk away from the game.

For what it is worth, I very much agree with this. Also, I appreciate the "relaxing" aspects of a space simulator versus eg. an action-packed flight combat simulator. It feels more realistic to me to sit back and watch as I slowly approach a planet/station, and occasionally make minute adjustments to the approach. There is some room in that for automatic piloting of course, but let's keep it realistic.

The number of stations that support autodocking should be carefully limited. We could assume that autodocking costs a significant amount for any but the most simple of implementations. And some stations might simply not bother because it would not significantly improve their position in regard to traffic/business. For example, the technology of today offers the possibility of a great many improvements to eg. transportation, yet some cities fail to properly synchronize traffic lights.

greenfreedom10 wrote: The number of stations that support autodocking should be carefully limited. We could assume that autodocking costs a significant amount for any but the most simple of implementations. And some stations might simply not bother because it would not significantly improve their position in regard to traffic/business. For example, the technology of today offers the possibility of a great many improvements to eg. transportation, yet some cities fail to properly synchronize traffic lights.

To my mind , there are three places that must have auto-dock with this line of thinking. Planets: Until atmospheric flight and the transition is done the details of the narrow angle needed for reentry can be explained away by auto-dock, after that point the difficulty of it would make auto-dock very attractive. Complex Internal dock sights: With a little practice even a fully loaded plowshare can be flown into the internal docks on a mining base, other bases are not as friendly to dock with. (Perhaps with the bureaucratic red tape that the description of the ralean indicates they would be the worst offenders of needing auto-docking but not having it.) Bases frequently handling large mass loads: A ship with 6000% base mass is rather difficult to control, so bases that often handle such ships would find the cost well worth the savings in incidental repairs from collisions. Bases like a relay station, with little expected traffic, would likely not see a need for auto-docking. Especially when improved economies are up and running.
I simply do not see how navigation can be made more engaging. Most of it is straight-line flying, and gravity wells can be avoided or handled readily by an autopilot. There are many ways to require pilot input, but these would mostly add tedium. Spaceflight could be made such that walking away is less appealing with options like power management and other useful, but not necessary, tasks. But you could just as well add in-flight mini-games (chess, solitaire, pong...). Actionable news/SOS reports might change up your plans too. what are you thinking Deus Siddis?

shenle wrote:Hmm, autodocking to fighter barracks is interesting... but even more interesting is the amount of bumping that you get when you launch afterwards, which turns all the base's defenses on and gets you quickly liquidated. I don't remember that happening before.

If you move into a wall and get stuck there, your ship will damage the station and the station will eventually start firing at you.

Your ship should not bump into the station while undocking, but there appears to be a problem with the accuracy in one of the underlying navigation scripts (ChangeHeading). As long as this problem is not solved, the autodocking feature will remain experimental.

greenfreedom10 wrote:The number of stations that support autodocking should be carefully limited.

Only military stations support autodocking at the moment.

travists wrote:Planets: Until atmospheric flight and the transition is done the details of the narrow angle needed for reentry can be explained away by auto-dock, after that point the difficulty of it would make auto-dock very attractive.

Okay, so we could assume that planet docking can be implemented ship-side only, for all planets. Then if the player attempts to land on a planet without autodocking, the shields heat up and the ship could potentially be destroyed. While we're at it, the atmosphere should be visible (is it, with a normal config?) and fighting in a planet's atmosphere can heat up shields somewhat.

Complex Internal dock sights: With a little practice even a fully loaded plowshare can be flown into the internal docks on a mining base, other bases are not as friendly to dock with. (Perhaps with the bureaucratic red tape that the description of the ralean indicates they would be the worst offenders of needing auto-docking but not having it.) Bases frequently handling large mass loads: A ship with 6000% base mass is rather difficult to control, so bases that often handle such ships would find the cost well worth the savings in incidental repairs from collisions. Bases like a relay station, with little expected traffic, would likely not see a need for auto-docking. Especially when improved economies are up and running.

You have given some good reasons for stations to have or not have autodocking. Is there a way (and is it necessary) to somehow suggest to the player the reason for whether autodocking support exists, along with other in-game traits? There is potential for a richly dynamic universe based on faction traits and other things, but if the user does not know that eg. Rlaan requires lots of red tape (I had no clue), then they won't realize that is why Rlaan stations have few features.

I simply do not see how navigation can be made more engaging. Most of it is straight-line flying, and gravity wells can be avoided or handled readily by an autopilot. There are many ways to require pilot input, but these would mostly add tedium. Spaceflight could be made such that walking away is less appealing with options like power management and other useful, but not necessary, tasks.

Perhaps I have given an idea above for one way to improve flight. Hopefully others have better ideas than that one.

But you could just as well add in-flight mini-games (chess, solitaire, pong...).

Argh, no no no no! If I want to do crosswords I can buy a book! --Sorry for the outburst but that seems like a terrible idea. ;)

Actionable news/SOS reports might change up your plans too.

In-flight news? Hmm, interesting idea... ("I was reading the morning's news when suddenly I felt the ship lurch with a terrible impact. The news printout fell to the floor of the bridge as I checked the damage assessment...")

travists wrote: I simply do not see how navigation can be made more engaging. . .

. . .what are you thinking Deus Siddis?

Basically I am thinking the game currently isn't doing anything with navigation and that is why it is as dull as it is. We have three big categories of navigation game play mechanics which remain undeveloped:

Hazards. Asteroid belts, debri fields, mine fields, ambushes, raiders, uprisings (or riots), nebulae, black hole and magnetar systems.

Exploration. Unexplored systems, partially explored systems, derelicts, salvageable scrap, mining and colonization opportunities, alien artifacts, undiscovered alien species, theoretical (or unimagined) anomalies.

Internal. Things happening inside your own ship or fleet, mid-flight. Vessel systems maintenance or systems inspection, crew interaction, crew psych assessment and crew task assignment, mystery and code deciphering, course and strategy planning and logging, fighting hostile or handling neutral stowaways, boarders, rescued victims and other 'guests' inside your vessel.

Tangentially, if you had more things to do and deal with when you arrived at a destination, getting back into deep space navigation might seem more like a relatively relaxing break from the action. Imagine if you just barely made it out of the docks with ship and cargo intact, after the station was taken by an ISO lead riot (who equally fortunately, only gained access to the station weapon controls after you had made SPEC). I don't know about you, but I might feel great if nothing more happened during the deep space navigation to a nearby safe haven.

Sounds good, not auto-docking exactly, but quite usable. Hazards is a must, Exploration should be implemented too! Internal sounds like crews need to be finished first, and would only apply on larger ships, for much of it anyway. It seems odd to jump into a mostly unexplored system, but all jumppoints are known points as is the destination of those jumps. The best part is it does not preclude auto-docking, just gives you something else to do while you wait!