Planetary code

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klauss
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

log0 wrote:
Can you use VS's planet technique when far away, and switch to generated terrain when up close?
I hope to avoid switching. The lowest lod atm is about 3k vertices per planet, should be low-poly enough?
It's not about low-polyness, it's about quality.
The close-up techniques won't ever be suited for distant views.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

?
Planetary flight with no ogre needed, everything handled by VS itself.

Here are thos games I mentioned:
Pioneer
Spaceway
Project Simerge Does planets as well as interior (ships, stations)
Tech demos and links Good source for code and links

I obtained this list from: Our engine is more complete than all the rest except when it comes to seamless and overall eye candy. If we wantt o get back in the forefront of the top tier flight sim engine we need to get some more developers and learn from these examples so we can build seamless into the VS engine (no ogre required)
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

Quick question, is this the same or nearly the same as whats posted in the vegaogre svn?
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Re: Planetary code

Post by charlieg »

pheonixstorm wrote:
?
Planetary flight with no ogre needed, everything handled by VS itself.

Here are thos games I mentioned:
Pioneer
Spaceway
Project Simerge Does planets as well as interior (ships, stations)
Tech demos and links Good source for code and links

I obtained this list from: Our engine is more complete than all the rest except when it comes to seamless and overall eye candy. If we wantt o get back in the forefront of the top tier flight sim engine we need to get some more developers and learn from these examples so we can build seamless into the VS engine (no ogre required)
I just don't think you're right here phoenix. You are confusing a number of issues and making a number of assumptions.

VS adopting Ogre will not prevent VS from reaching the forefront of space flight sim engines. If anything, it will likely help, as it reduces the developer burden by taking away a giant complexity and maintenance headache from the VS devs, who can focus on actual features and not low level wizardry - which is part of what has caused the VS codebase to become so difficult to understand in the first place.

Then don't forget the number of well integrated libraries that are [theoretically] easy to pull into an Ogre-based game - stuff like MyGUI or CEGUI etc. For example, all the screenshots of these use anti-aliased fonts, so I'm guessing that is also out-of-the-box with Ogre. It's all the little details like that which consume developer time and inflate codebase size/complexity if done directly in VS.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by log0 »

Patch with the latest changes against experimental branch http://sourceforge.net/projects/vegaogr ... h/download
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

charlieg wrote:Then don't forget the number of well integrated libraries that are [theoretically] easy to pull into an Ogre-based game - stuff like MyGUI or CEGUI etc. For example, all the screenshots of these use anti-aliased fonts, so I'm guessing that is also out-of-the-box with Ogre. It's all the little details like that which consume developer time and inflate codebase size/complexity if done directly in VS.
Ogre comes with a true-type font renderer, if I'm not mistaken. Now that's an improvement ;)
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

charlieg wrote:I just don't think you're right here phoenix. You are confusing a number of issues and making a number of assumptions.
Assumption of what?
VS adopting Ogre will not prevent VS from reaching the forefront of space flight sim engines. If anything, it will likely help, as it reduces the developer burden by taking away a giant complexity and maintenance headache from the VS devs, who can focus on actual features and not low level wizardry - which is part of what has caused the VS codebase to become so difficult to understand in the first place.
I didn't say it would. I am refering to the fact that VS is a complete game AND engine. Once upon a time (from what I've read so far) VS used to be high tech, but now its lost it edge.. Yeah, adding ogre would help a lot, but we would also have to decde on if we would support two rendering engine or drop the VS renderer. So its a choice, revamp the current code to streamline and modernize or switch to ogre or maybe even soemthing else such as G3D
Then don't forget the number of well integrated libraries that are [theoretically] easy to pull into an Ogre-based game - stuff like MyGUI or CEGUI etc. For example, all the screenshots of these use anti-aliased fonts, so I'm guessing that is also out-of-the-box with Ogre. It's all the little details like that which consume developer time and inflate codebase size/complexity if done directly in VS.
Pulling in outside libraries isn't a big deal. Why reinvent the wheel? Like i've said elsewhere though, VS is both a game and an engine, so why not continue to improve it and modernize it? Its a mess, true, and needs some serious cleaning and probably a complete rewrite but it is a complete engine. How many non-commercial games are written fro the ground up? True we could still use ogre or g3d as the renderer and just plug in other libraries as we need them but then VS only becomes data. Thats not a bad thing, but thats also not what VS has been for the last decade. Thats also why I created the ogre port site (which needs to be polished and cleaned up a bit).

Switching to ogre isn't a bad thing but for now klauss is continuing on with te main vs code as am I and we still get patches and other assistance on vs proper while log0 and strook play with the ogre port and hopefully do what they can to keep vs and vs ogre in synch so at some point we can use the server as a standalone and let the end user decide on what client the want to use or prefer.

So, does this clear things up any?
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

pheonixstorm wrote:Yeah, adding ogre would help a lot, but we would also have to decde on if we would support two rendering engine or drop the VS renderer.
Drop.

We're talking about graphics code here, not all of VS.
Drop VS graphics, in favor of Ogre. It was always the plan.

VS AI, physics, sound, logic, data... that stays.

Until they're revamped in turn, that is.
pheonixstorm wrote: Switching to ogre isn't a bad thing but for now klauss is continuing on with te main vs code as am I and we still get patches and other assistance on vs proper while log0 and strook play with the ogre port and hopefully do what they can to keep vs and vs ogre in synch so at some point we can use the server as a standalone and let the end user decide on what client the want to use or prefer.
I'm all for switching to Ogre. I started that branch (the ogre branch, not vegaogre).

The thing with it, it's a helluva lot of work. And I'm short on time. So, a while back, I went back to doing the small improvements that people can appreciate, instead of the gargantuan switch noone will (until finished).

If I ever go back to having weeks of free time at a time, I might retake that branch. Or we could pull vegaogre code. Whatever's the path of least resistance then.
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log0

Re: Planetary code

Post by log0 »

Looks like i am wasting my time then. I've never intended to write/maintain my own Ogre based version of VS.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

log0 wrote:Looks like i am wasting my time then. I've never intended to write/maintain my own Ogre based version of VS.
I think we have miscommunication here
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

klauss wrote:
log0 wrote:Looks like i am wasting my time then. I've never intended to write/maintain my own Ogre based version of VS.
I think we have miscommunication here
In fact I think your work is very interesting.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

log0 wrote:Looks like i am wasting my time then. I've never intended to write/maintain my own Ogre based version of VS.
No, not wasting your time at all. What happened to strook to make you think you have to write/maintain vegaogre?

Anyway, if you want to take a break from the flight codewe would be happy to have you look over the AI code for any ideas/patches.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

I have ideas, just not much time to implement them.

We need a straightforward state machine for AI. Currently, the AI is a kind of state machine, but too convoluted for our benefit. We need an easier to understand and follow state machine.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

Any progress in ogre besides planets?
The current test ogre planet renderer is wrong (planet surface closer , than objects above it....)
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

just the last patch posted by log0 and I havent played with it yet.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by charlieg »

I hope log0 didn't get scared off :|
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

hope not.. will send an email though in a few days if nothing new from him
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log0

Re: Planetary code

Post by log0 »

The current test ogre planet renderer is wrong (planet surface closer , than objects above it....)
To fix this the code has to be modified to run two passes. A close objects camera 0-65km and far objects camera 65km-inf. This is how VS is setup from my understanding.

Although the planet code is meant to be used with this method http://outerra.blogspot.com/2009/08/log ... uffer.html . This means drawing all objects within Ogre and shaders as a minimum reqierement. I've started to port VS techniques to Ogre materials to implement it. But I still haven't figured out where to plug the code into, where techniques, meshes and textures are loaded.

Btw I do not expect this code to go into VS. Pheonixstorm prefers a working planet renderer(pioneer ...), which makes sense. The OgrePlanet stuff is incomplete obviously. And klauss has got his Ogre branch which should be preferred as he knows the code.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by klauss »

log0 wrote: Btw I do not expect this code to go into VS. Pheonixstorm prefers a working planet renderer(pioneer ...), which makes sense. The OgrePlanet stuff is incomplete obviously. And klauss has got his Ogre branch which should be preferred as he knows the code.
But that branch has nothing regarding on-demand terrain generation. I bet the generation code could be reused, a lot easier than other generators I bet, and even better since you're battling the same precision and distance issues we have in VS. In general, the vegaogre planet stuff I expect fully reusable within the ogre branch.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by travists »

I may be mistaken, but it was my impression that, at least at one point, if Ogre branches ever got to the point that they matched or out did the current in-house engine it would migrate to primary status. Makes sense to me: focus on the game engines and let someone else do the upkeep on the renderer. AI, combat system, dynamic universe they all are "engines". One of the ogre threads had a complaint about VS becoming just a data set... Why do you think even the big name companies use proven video solutions? A 3D engine is quite a feat in and of its self, and the original team is to be commended for their success as are all those that have improved it. However, if an external graphics engine can be utilized to improve the appearance and add some flash (little things like lens flairs can have a big effect) then I say: "full speed ahead!"
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Re: Planetary code

Post by log0 »

@pheonixstorm
I've checked out the experimental branch. It is missing a dozen files or so, won't compile. Is it a problem with the patch? Have you been able to run it?
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

I compiled it locally and crashed into a planet with it.

What files are missing anyway? I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary.
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Re: Planetary code

Post by log0 »

src/noisepp/core/Noise.h
src/noisepp/core/NoiseMinimum.h
src/noisepp/core/NoiseMultiply.h
src/noisepp/core/NoisePlatform.h
src/noisepp/core/NoisePower.h
src/noisepp/core/NoiseRidgedMulti.h
src/noisepp/core/NoiseScaleBias.h
src/noisepp/core/NoiseVoronoi.h
src/noisepp/threadpp/Thread.h
src/noisepp/threadpp/ThreadImplementation.h
src/noisepp/utils/NoiseUtils.h
src/noisepp/utils/NoiseBuilders.cpp
src/noisepp/utils/NoiseModules.cpp
src/noisepp/utils/NoiseReader.cpp
src/planet/OPDataSource.h
src/planet/OPStitching.h
src/planet/OPHeightDataResourceLoader.cpp
src/planet/OPPatch.cpp
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Re: Planetary code

Post by charlieg »

How's about a blog post with this news? "You can now fly into planets! Huzzah!"
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Re: Planetary code

Post by pheonixstorm »

dont know why they got missed.. they showed as being there on my end so I deleted them and re added them to my repo. Committing now.
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