Midway step in refactoring trade

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travists
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

My experience has been that it is already tracking the stardate.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

I wouldn't be so sure.
I don't remember a modules change with the stardate change.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Back in 5.0 the stardate reset to 000.000 (or whatever) every time you launched the game, if not your ship. Last I recall (still fighting with getting it to run again) it more or less picked up where it left off. But I'm not opposed to a new thread and tracker to hash out what stardate should be/do.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Been playing it some again. Somehow, the stardate/timestamp used for the communication log is tracking through saved games. I would assume that this is the same one used in the news, though I seldom check the news. Never found it useful. Each tick looks to be about 1/10 of a second with no accounting for minutes or hours.
12H = 720M = 43200S = 432000 tics so at intervals of 000.430.000 set a flag to recalculate the price of goods on landing. Then again, that is quite a bit of in-game time. So, if we drop it to a 3 hour cycle 000.108.000 somewhere around 3-4 times what I have played it and I'm still in my llama! Anyway, what would be a reasonable cycle to trip a recalculation?
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

I would take landings into account too.

After all, in single player, some time is supposed to pass while landing and being in-base, beyond what's experienced in realtime.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Agreed. What is the difficulty level of tacking time on to that counter? How about tacking time on for repairs, upgrades, cargo loading/unloading?
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

Shouldn't be overly complex. If the savegame can keep track of counters, they can be used in the stardate computation rather easily - or maybe the stardate can be made to advance every time a time-consuming operation takes place. Both would work I guess.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

I'm thinking just advance the stardate when you preform the action, or perhaps when closing the dialog. What I have not noticed is if the counter keeps going while docked.

Some thoughts on times to add:
  • Loading/unloading ammunition: 10 sec/round
  • mounting/unmounting guns: 30 sec/gun
  • installing/removing armor: 2 min/operation
  • installing/removing internal upgrades: 5 min/unit
  • installing/removing sensor package: 1 min/unit
  • Loading/unloading cargo: 20 sec/ton
  • Launching/Landing: 10 min
Short times for most I know, but if delays are going to be lived in MMO editions (to keep every one in sync), they need to be liveable.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

Online times could easily be scaled up/down from single player.

I'd rather work on a realistic scale, and then scale up/down for online play.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

OK
  • Loading/unloading ammunition: 2min/round
  • mounting/unmounting guns: 5min/gun
  • installing/removing armor: 45 min/operation
  • installing/removing internal upgrades: 20 min/unit
  • installing/removing sensor package: 10 min/unit
  • Loading/unloading cargo: 2 min/ton
  • Launching/Landing: 15 min
I'm open to other times too.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:Loading/unloading ammunition: 2min/round
Maybe for missiles, but machine guns or the like?
You'll have to make that distinction.

Maybe % relative to max ammo?
travists wrote:installing/removing armor: 45 min/operation
I think it should depend on ship size.
travists wrote:installing/removing internal upgrades: 20 min/unit
That's really fast IMO.
travists wrote:Loading/unloading cargo: 2 min/ton
Maybe it should be a function of both weight and volume. And ship capacity, otherwise it could go overboard for the big ships, so much no amount of scaling down would compensate in online mode.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:Maybe % relative to max ammo?
Why not simply in upgrade units, i.e. box-by-box? This way a mount with 10x of the same ammo rearms 10x longer.
klauss wrote:
travists wrote:installing/removing internal upgrades: 20 min/unit
That's really fast IMO.
Depends - if it's "open the access door, unbolt and remove the old part, install and bolt down the new part, close door", it may be a few minutes. If it's changing half of the ship mass, well...
With servicing support, i'd assign minimum install times, since skipping calibration after that is possible, but not healthy.

Generally, the best solution IMO would be a base value set per upgrade, possibly modified by the facility doing the job.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

TBeholder wrote:
klauss wrote:Maybe % relative to max ammo?
Why not simply in upgrade units, i.e. box-by-box? This way a mount with 10x of the same ammo rearms 10x longer.
That's simply not true even in RL.

Replacing a 30mm magazine (with many many many rounds each) takes a lot less time (per round) than a missile.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

(ammo)
klauss wrote:Maybe for missiles, but machine guns or the like?
You'll have to make that distinction.

Maybe % relative to max ammo?
Fair enough, but what about adding missile pods? Machine guns likely have ammo belts that you just drop in, pods have cartridges, It is almost a per ammo thing.

(armor)
klauss wrote:I think it should depend on ship size.
If that can be handled with ease, great. Ideally it would be armor density and surface area and armor thickness.

(upgrades)
klauss wrote:That's really fast IMO.
Perhaps, but 1: most upgrades are largely modular, with only the interfaces needing a custom fit and 2: time on the ground is money out of your pocket, so they will be as quick as possible or not have much business.

(cargo)
klauss wrote:Maybe it should be a function of both weight and volume. And ship capacity, otherwise it could go overboard for the big ships, so much no amount of scaling down would compensate in online mode.
That is a reasonable function.

(Over all)
TBeholder wrote:Generally, the best solution IMO would be a base value set per upgrade, possibly modified by the facility doing the job.
This is a sound option
  • Upgrade and cargo have "base install time"
  • Ship has "maintenance friendly" and "cargo loading capacity" values modifying base time
  • The facility has "upgrade proficiency" and "cargo loading times" values to further modify base time
  • eventually crew may have values that modify these as well.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

I'm thinking this should all be scriptable, not hardcoded...
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Cargo pricing again:

With some new voices cropping up, lets work from the bottom up. Bases and planets. I think we need primary producers (ore/raw agricultural products), secondary producers (useable metals/food), manufacturers(consumer, industrial, and military goods), and end consumers (military bases, resorts, and mega-residential facilities) as well as some special types like medical
**Note: planets can support more than one industry more readily than bases**

PP
  • Asteroid mines
  • Gas harvesters
  • Agricultural (station)
SP
  • Refineries
  • Food processing (station)
  • Agricultural (Planet)
M
  • Factory
  • Pharmaceutical production facility
  • Shipyard
EC
  • fighter base
  • Orbital housing facility
  • Super station/star fortress
  • Mobile Recreational Facility (station)
  • Resort
S
  • Medical facility
  • Relay station
  • Research
  • Educational
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

Sounds fine.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Anyone else?

Agreements?
Objections?
Additions?
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by klauss »

If silence prevails, I'd start the implementation as soon as we close the 0.5.1 release. For which we need a windows installer...
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

OK, If nothing is heard in a couple of days I'll see what more I can work out. I think the basic mechanics are worked out.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Nothing heard. Of the current base listing I am questioning the Commerce center and Shaper Bio-Adaptation.

Commerce Center: Uhh.... Whenever the Heat-radiation model universe is implemented perhaps these are on border regions providing a common trading post?

Shaper Bio-Adaptation: Just what are these anyway? Without a known function (or canonical necessity) I'm inclined to use the model for Shaper bases and drop this one.

I would also like to add
Pharmaceutical Plant: Somewhere between a refinery and a factory producing medical goods

Food processing plant: Usually found where planetary space is scares it turns raw food stuff into more readily used products.

EDIT: Rec Center: Usualy found near hot borders, they provide a Las Vegas style retreat for front line troops on leave, as well as the local populace.

Is the population of central systems large enough to make orbital habitations logical?

Next up: basic goods categories!
Last edited by travists on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

OK, Working on the goods catagories.
1: do shipyards need ship parts or do they make them?
2: should factory be split up into things like weapons plant, consumer factory, starship sub-assembaly plant?
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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by loki1950 »

Is the population of central systems large enough to make orbital habitations logical?
Not sure and the Minister of Information is not available for a definitive answer so let us say yes just for diversity's sake 8)


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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by loki1950 »

I would imagine that shipyards have to stock parts made else where as well as fabricate the the basic hull sub-assemblies

And differing types of factories is a logical extension.

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Re: Midway step in refactoring trade

Post by travists »

Thanks for the input. See my edit re Rec Centers. If there is a Pleasure Planet Consortium (appears in the opining splash screens), it seems to me that there should be mobile (theoretically) stations that cater to troops more remote populations, etc.
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