All space stations are the same

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:07 pm

On the other hand, one could say "what could Mamiya Otaru not have done with a bit of help?" The only VS mod that is a finished product was basically put together by one guy. Or take WCU: Spiritplumber single-handedly almost put together like a dozen times as many ships as VS ever mustered, and leads the way in AI. And she badly, ***badly*** needs help...
But just about every new artist coming to these boards wants to help with the VS mod, and just about every thinker that comes to these boards thinks about how to improve the VS mod, and where are we? No storyline, no story to learn within the game --if you want to know what's going on you have to read docs offline; and when I offered the simple idea of having libraries and moving the documentation to books you read in-game I got ignored, given the silent treatment.
The same argument you make for the VS mod could be made for any mod: "If we all worked on it...", so why the VS mod specifically?
Sounds like you were saying "to hell with the little guy"... "to hell with small is beautiful"...

And come to think of it, I think I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and head back to the WCU forum and my WCU work; got tons of modelling work waiting for me there, and I'm not sure these stations we're making won't end up in the same black hole as everything else, anyways.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:27 pm

chuck_starchaser wrote:On the other hand, one could say "what could Mamiya Otaru not have done with a bit of help?" The only VS mod that is a finished product was basically put together by one guy. Or take WCU: Spiritplumber single-handedly almost put together like a dozen times as many ships as VS ever mustered, and leads the way in AI. And she badly, ***badly*** needs help...
But just about every new artist coming to these boards wants to help with the VS mod, and just about every thinker that comes to these boards thinks about how to improve the VS mod, and where are we? No storyline, no story to learn within the game --if you want to know what's going on you have to read docs offline; and when I offered the simple idea of having libraries and moving the documentation to books you read in-game I got ignored, given the silent treatment.
The same argument you make for the VS mod could be made for any mod: "If we all worked on it...", so why the VS mod specifically?
Sounds like you were saying "to hell with the little guy"... "to hell with small is beautiful"...

And come to think of it, I think I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and head back to the WCU forum and my WCU work; got tons of modelling work waiting for me there, and I'm not sure these stations we're making won't end up in the same black hole as everything else, anyways.

You've got a point, but I thought that the modding could go like this: As you said, one makes a mod for VS, but not releases it as a separate mod, but splits VS into modes. Like for those who make mods that are realistic, there could be VS simulation mode, but for those, who prefer action, could be VS arcade mode. Or anything like this. This way you could be sure that almost all good ideas one comes up with are included in VS.
And, if VS would become better, it would attract more bright people to make their modifications. I think that VS simulation should become A LOT better before any serious modding could be effective.

Post by **hurleybird** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:12 pm

Hmmm... Maybe some sort of 'purple crystal' theme would work good for rlaan stations. As there are not any rlaan stations in the game yet, I would think that you could be a pretty liberal with creativity

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:21 pm

I think that rlaan bases should be round to suggest organic orign, some metal and communication systems. Still, there could be some purple crystals too.
If i'm missing something, please write about it.

drvoke · Post by **drvoke** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:51 am

Has anyone even done any pencil sketches of ship ideas? I'm teaching myself blender, and I wouldn't mind doing modeling, but my ideas, the stuff I find nice looking and would be interesting to model don't fit real-world physics(especially space stations). If, however, someone had 2d drawings that looked like they had potential, I wouldn't mind practicing by doing something.

Halleck · Post by **Halleck** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:28 am

That rlaan station prototype looks spiff-tastic. You might think about adding some of those wing appendages too (or some type of webbing) like are on most rlaan ships... I think those might be heat sinks and photosynthesis panels or something.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:35 am

Kangaroo22 wrote:You've got a point, but I thought that the modding could go like this: As you said, one makes a mod for VS, but not releases it as a separate mod, but splits VS into modes. Like for those who make mods that are realistic, there could be VS simulation mode, but for those, who prefer action, could be VS arcade mode. Or anything like this. This way you could be sure that almost all good ideas one comes up with are included in VS.

It's not that easy, unfortunately. If you want to make a really realistic mod, you have to either change all the ships to show where the lateral and vertical thrusters are, as the models generally only show thrusters facing back, or you have to change the game completely so that it is consistent with the ships as they are depicted. 20 or 30 G accelerations would go out the window, and even 2 G accelerations wouldn't be possible with ships that have engines mounted on flimsy wings, so you'd have to increase the spec unrealism. In short, a realistic mod wouldn't even consider "dogfights" in the vacuum of space, period; which is what VS is all about. But besides, why, again, VS? I've no more attachment to Rlaan or Aera than I do to ET. At least I know what ET looks like... Nor would I be interested in any of the VS ships that sport wings, nor in the cap ships which are too low in detail. What I really like about VS is the art and the music; but that's not enough reason to want to make a "mod of the VS mod". I'd rather start from scratch.

And, if VS would become better, it would attract more bright people to make their modifications. I think that VS simulation should become A LOT better before any serious modding could be effective.

God I hope it doesn't attract any more bright people, when other mods are in so much need. And simulation is something you'll see in WCU long before you see it in VS.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:55 am

I'm afraid that i didn't understand what an ET is.

Nevermind, gonna take time for me to get used to all that information about WCU and VS.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:47 am

ET (Extra-terrestrial) was a blockbuster movie, by Steven Spielberg I think, from a few years back. Just a bad movie, like all popular things are; but one of those things one assume everyone knows... Just substitute Jaja Beans for ET in my statement, and its meaning will remain.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:56 pm

A new base has been modeled by me, maybe an old research base. Not yet complete, so any comments are welcome. Also, if there is any kind of space bases i'm missing, please tell me, i'm short of ideas now.

Some screenies:

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:34 pm

Just tried my hand at making textures. I guess the easiest should be planet textures, so I made some:

If these pics need stretching or any other stuff like this, please enlighten me

EDIT: made some more.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:39 pm

A prototype for a heavy cargo ship.
Supposed to be optimized for maximum cargo volume.

The front view:

A look of the central part (computers, crew, food reserve, electricity storage)

View of ship's rear thrusters and docks:

The side view (manouvering jets and additional cargo containers)

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:24 pm

I've retextured my last model to look like it has been flying for a century... (this is my first texture) so that erases any chance that it could be a manufacturable ship. Maybe it's role could be in a campaign of some sort, where an owner of this old vessel is trying to get rid of it and sells it to the player. There should be a code for this ship that doesn't let it land on aerospace, as it couldn't resist the landig process. Instead, it could launch small cargo ships to the planets to transport the cargo. Anyway, I think it looks good

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:14 pm

To everyone: Would there be any advantages of a nuclear power plant in open space? I've jous started making one, but I didn't seem to find enough real needs to have one. Btw, it seems to me that the best way to make concepts is to firs think about the space station's purpose and then get to modelling. So if there is any kind of station still needed, I might try to make something out of it.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:39 pm

Depends what you're trying to do. A lot of the disadvantages of nuke plants are eliminated- you don't need nearly so much radiation shield when half of your plant can just vent out into space, disposing of waste is no longer problematic, meltdowns are no longer dangerous although it's a hell of a lot harder to cool the reactor chamber, and you don't have any waste problems. Overall, in deep space they work a lot better than anything but fusion, although it seems to be generally assumed that spaceflight and fusion power go hand-in-hand somehow.

If you're putting one in, I've got some schematics that might be helpful.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:08 am

Could you post those schematics, Ryder? I'm facing my power plant ignorance for a second time, first with the cargo ship, now working on the Bengal.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:55 am

I'm... not 100% that these are okay legal-wise, given terrorist mania these days and the fact that these are, y'know, an actual real nuke plant, but there's nothing particularly compromising here and I've left the specifics of the plant out, so fuck it. The Man wants 'em down, he can ask nicely or come knockin' on my door in the middle of the night.

Oh yeah, and I might mention, they're fuckin' huge. Just so you know.

http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... tled-1.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... tled-2.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... tled-4.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... tled-5.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... tled-8.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... led-10.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... led-11.jpg
http://www.penguinbomb.com/donate/vs_mo ... led-14.jpg

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:19 am

Good stuff! Thanks.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:12 pm

My nuclear power plant+antimatter storage station. Still needs some work, so if there is anything wrong, i'll be glad to hear from you.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:22 pm

Very nice. I'd say of this, same as of your other models, though: Needs more detail to reach shipping game acceptability. The pipes and structures are a step in the right direction; just more of it. Those cylindrical tanks could have pipes going, say, from the side to the top, then turning into the tank at the axis, for example. Electical lines. Scaffolds for EVA work. Antennas. Radiators. If those surfaces are rads, they could use a bit of surface geometry, connecting pipes, a supporting rim perhaps? Docking areas. Living areas for station personnel. Etceteras.
Think of it this way: A typical fighter model is about 5000 tris. At a similar absolute detail magnitude, the amount of detail should increase with the square of the size across of a model. So, if a station is as big across as 20 fighter wing-spans, then the amount of geometry, to be consistent, should be 400 times as much, or 2 million tris. That's not feasible; but a station should be at least 10 times as poly heavy as a fighter if only to pay lip service to consistency.
If Wings gives you trouble with complexity, one thing you could do is separate the sections of the station and work on them as separate files. Once finished, you could export them as obj and import them all into blender and join them all.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:40 pm

I'll do that, but i think that having a great ammount of scaffolds is a bit weird - there is no actoual pressure applied to the station, except for the inner pressure. Anyways, i'm not as smart as you, Chuck, so I might be wrong. And the docking ports - what should they actually contain? In VS I didn't find much detail, and in PR ships landed automatically, so I don't have a clear idea what do the stations use for letting ships dock. If I used the Soyuz connecting port, just like you, it would be incompactable with any other mod.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:11 pm

Scaffolds are something I introduced with my cargo ship, for my mod, and justified by the artificial gravity afforded by the constant acceleration mode of spaceflight I want for my mod. They'd be a bit out of place in some other mods. I just threw that in as food for thought. Thing is, when you're doing EVA work in zero G you need some kind of support. Real space stations have handle bars you can grab onto all over the outside. Problem with them is you can't grab onto them while using your hands to do your work, so you have to anchor yourself with tethers. I just thought that in the future, there'd be a better solution to this problem, and possibly scaffolds might be it.

For dockings, if you fly around a bit in Vegastrike you'll find stations that have surfaces with like lighting poles on the sides, in some of the stations. Other stations just have some raised areas on a surface where ships can dock. Others have rectangular garages; others you have to dodge pipes and fly through a window to go inside. Frankly, I don't know what the exact docking mechanism is, in Vegastrike. Never seen a Soyuz style hatch, but neither are there startrek-style teleporters

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:24 pm

I probably missed something, cause I thought that you used a Soyuz style hatch for your ship... Gotta read your cargo ship post again. Anyways, it looks like I can improvise.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:30 pm

You got that right, but my small cargo ship is for my mod; --not for Vegastrike.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:36 pm

I know, but don't you think that your ship is so detailed that most PCs wont be able to get enough FPS for your mod(like mine)?
And another thing - I have no idea how to texture my bases, becaus Wings just cannot handle the large polycount when texturing.

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All space stations are the same

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