Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by Deus Siddis »

ermo wrote:
Deus Siddis wrote: Also make sure that "game_speed" and "game_accel" are set to 1 in the default "difficulty" preset. Otherwise all the acceleration and speed governor values will be lies.
Can you elaborate on this? Is it still possible to have 0.5 game_speed for PU or is this a different concern?
Say you want the tarsus to move at 300 m/s and so you set its speed governor to 300 in units.csv. If game_speed is set to 0.5 then your tarsus will only move at 150 m/s in-game. Setting it to one means what-you-see-is-what-you-get. And the same applies to game_accel when it comes to ship acceleration rates.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Deus Siddis wrote:
ermo wrote:
Deus Siddis wrote: Also make sure that "game_speed" and "game_accel" are set to 1 in the default "difficulty" preset. Otherwise all the acceleration and speed governor values will be lies.
Can you elaborate on this? Is it still possible to have 0.5 game_speed for PU or is this a different concern?
Say you want the tarsus to move at 300 m/s and so you set its speed governor to 300 in units.csv. If game_speed is set to 0.5 then your tarsus will only move at 150 m/s in-game. Setting it to one means what-you-see-is-what-you-get. And the same applies to game_accel when it comes to ship acceleration rates.
Ah. We have different premises.

My goal is to have the Tarsus et al to move at whatever speed it feels like they're moving with in the original Privateer (PO). As you have probably noticed, the PO cockpit displays show KPS as velocity units, which I interpret as Kilometers Per Second. Clearly, this is not the real speed with which they're moving in PO.

Again, my goal at present is game-play similarity, not necessarily WYSIWYG speeds. WYSIWYG speeds would imply that we'd need to set the Tarsus's speed governor to 300'000 in units.csv, which makes little sense if the goal is to achieve an enjoyable dogfighting game-play experience. On the other hand, one could argue that using m/s for units would be ok and that it would simply imply the pilot reducing his flight speed to reduce turning circles and get on target faster.

I guess some tests are in order... :D
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An update on PU

Post by ermo »

Travis,

I've re-enabled the ability to buy a jump-drive in PU by adding the appropriate entry to master_part_list.csv and stripping any references to it from the Capt. Stahl Troy campaign (modules/camptroy.py, modules/earnable_upgrades.py).

My current thinking is that we can massage the PU missions slightly, such that they give a discount instead of enabling the purchase of a particular ship. The idea would be that ALL basic model ships are available from the outset (with the possible exception of improved models of the basic ships). If you choose to complete the PU mission which previously unlocked the basic model ship in question, it would instead give you a discount on buying said basic model ship. Missions that yield access to improved models of existing ships could maybe remain as-is?

I've also been thinking about using Capt. Stahl's Troy mission to unlock an Exploratory Services-spec Tarsus Mk. II, which is identical in size to the normal Tarsus, but enables one extra reactor level upgrade and one extra shield level upgrade. It would also be balanced such that it gets more powerful turning thrusters and/or inertial compensators, such that you can choose to either have it be more agile than the stock Tarsus, or you can choose to install the cargo module and have it become as agile as a stock Tarsus without a cargo module while being able to carry 25% more cargo. Other than that, it would be identical to a normal Tarsus. I feel that would be a good use of the Capt. Stahl mission and offer players a nice enough reward with the option of buying a slightly upgraded Tarsus Mk. II plus perhaps a discount on jump-drives (I've mentioned the discount idea to klauss and he sort of liked it I think :D ).

Thoughts?

P.S. I really like the 0.1 -> 0.5 game speed increase. You should try it out if you can find the time. I'll see if I can get my old CD-ROM copy of PO to run in a DOSBox to get a feel for the speeds as well...
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Travis,

I'm still looking at PU. But I get the feeling that if we want this to actually go anywhere, we need a repository of some sort. So I've decided to migrate my local SVN r505 of PU to git and host it on github. I'll get in touch once the conversion is ready. :)

Do you have any git experience?

EDIT: ... bummer. For me to be able to migrate with history from SVN to git, I need to have access to the SVN repository. Otherwise, it will just be a straight import of r505 without any history whatsoever. Can someone please try to get in contact with chuck_starchaser via any means necessary? TIA.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

Little upload experience with any manner of SVN.

As for the "improved" models, I don't care for some of them. These special use Galaxy ships particularly. A mid to entry level merchant ship is not a gun boat. However, the Centurion as talked about in the manual (I.E. three forward missile/Tractor mounts) would be nice.

On to missions. Seems to me that some of the PU missions are buggy and other just down right odd. I'm inclined to clip them and rebuild at a later date. Perhaps rename the .py so they don't load but the code is still there? However, random fixers would be great! And as the (well my anyway) plan is to expand beyond just Gemini, maybe some kitty fixers in Kilrathi territory.

Also many cockpits are non cannon, there is just tones of busy work involved and I get bored after so long.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Just tried Privateer Original in a DOSBox.

My first impression? WOW. Has it really been that long?! :D
  • Whatever 'meters' they are using in PO, they sure have an odd sense of scale compared to the ship models.
  • The hitboxes on enemies are rather small and I need to be within ~1000m to hit anything reliably w/lasers in the Tarsus.
  • 150 m/s seems about right if you set the governor to the fictional 300 kps and fly towards a planet in PU. Enemy ships also fly away from you fast, even though their visual models do not really suggest this. But Talons go past 1000m and even 2000m rather quickly.
  • The Tarsus in PO feels like it turns and accelerates much faster than the one in PU.
  • Combat in PO is a lot more fast paced than in PU.
  • The PO Tarsus starts with a Level 0 shield, not a Level 1 shield like in PU
  • The weapons have a higher rate of fire and possibly also a faster speed in PO than in PU. Need to test more.
Having trundled around in the Tarsus a fair bit in PU, I've grown fond of the idea of being able to upgrade it to Exploratory Services Mk.2 specs via Capt. Stahl's PU mission. I'd prefer to use the same mesh etc. as the original Tarsus, but have it turn and accelerate just a little bit faster, as well as being able to fit a level 2 light reactor (the original can only fit a level 1). Other than those slight changes, it'd be ye olde Tarsus, yet still feel like a nice little step up. It also makes sense in the context of Capt. Stahl's justification. It could be priced at, say, around twice the price of a refurbished Tarsus, so about 50k.

That said, it seems easy enough to comment out the 'odd' campaigns and ship-stuff we don't like/want. And the extra fixers were actually a feature I saw In your Remake 2012 which seemed like a nice touch. I'd certainly want to hack that into PU as well.

I'll see what I can do about preparing a PU archive which includes windows binaries (w/python 2.7) for you to test.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

Yeah, PU is its own beast.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by loki1950 »

There was an extensive discussion on ship and solar system scale on the WCJunction forum too bad that it is not available ATM that used PO as it's starting point IIRC the general conclusion was that PO made several hacks and short cuts due to the state of the art of both hardware and software capabilities of that time.The AI was very primitive. Klauss has a backup of the forum so all may not be lost :D

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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Travis,

After having dabbled with both PO, PU, GG and your Remake, I am beginning to understand why you'd rather focus on GG + extras. PU seems very different to GG -- especially in the way the ships move. And it also has a lot of, er, interesting ship variants as you say.

I got GG to run on the newest VS, which basically just required a few Python edits -- the usual (<iterator>.notDone()) to (not <iterator>.isDone()) thing -- so I tried that out as well. My first impression is that the lasers in particular are too slow compared to PO, but the rate at which you will get killed if someone like me decides to fly a Tarsus against two Talons seems spot on! :D

But on the whole, GG seems like a really slick PO re-implementation; it feels much more focused and less 'patchy' than PU (the python code also feels subjectively 'cleaner'). So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand why you'd want a "GG++" experience rather than a PU experience on which to base your WCU campaigns. Besides, the GG Tarsus model is certainly MUCH nicer than the PU model, even if it doesn't show its guns in the upgrade room.

But as slick as GG is, I'd still prefer to use the VS GUI interface, because it gives a few extra possibilities/niceties that aren't available in GG or PO. Progress is progress and I'll take what I can get. :D
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by Deus Siddis »

ermo wrote: Just tried Privateer Original in a DOSBox...
I got GG to run on the newest VS,
My first impression is that the lasers in particular are too slow compared to PO,
Before comparing speed differences between PO and GG, you may wish to make certain that dosbox is running PO at exactly the right speed (however that is defined). It might be the discrepancy is due to your dosbox settings alone.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Deus Siddis wrote:
ermo wrote: Just tried Privateer Original in a DOSBox...
I got GG to run on the newest VS,
My first impression is that the lasers in particular are too slow compared to PO,
Before comparing speed differences between PO and GG, you may wish to make certain that dosbox is running PO at exactly the right speed (however that is defined). It might be the discrepancy is due to your dosbox settings alone.
Not an unreasonable suggestion. Trouble is, I can't really seem to find any DosBOX guides telling me how to make my C2D E7500 @~2.93GHz reliably behave like an i486 DX2 66 MHz or a Pentium 100 (for instance). I can however detect a noticeable slowdown whenever I get close enough to a planet and it fills most of the cockpit view. This slowdown is also reflected in the music score. However, I haven't noticed the music going too fast, for whatever that's worth.

I also realize that someone like me claiming this and that about how GG and PU are tuned relative to PO might seem somewhat silly to those of you who have "been there, done that", so to speak. :mrgreen:
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by TBeholder »

ermo wrote: Just tried Privateer Original in a DOSBox...
I got GG to run on the newest VS,
My first impression is that the lasers in particular are too slow compared to PO
Turn off that stupid gun_speed_adjusted_game_speed first of all.
Deus Siddis wrote:Before comparing speed differences between PO and GG, you may wish to make certain that dosbox is running PO at exactly the right speed (however that is defined). It might be the discrepancy is due to your dosbox settings alone.
...also true.
ermo wrote:Not an unreasonable suggestion. Trouble is, I can't really seem to find any DosBOX guides telling me how to make my C2D E7500 @~2.93GHz reliably behave like an i486 DX2 66 MHz or a Pentium 100 (for instance).
"Cycles" means "cycles per millisecond", usually core=dynamic, cputype is explicit and straightforward - e.g. "486_slow", memory is explicit and straightforward too, sound buffer - experiment a little if there are problems. Or just search for "privateer +dosbox" - yahoo gives pages on dosbox.com, wcnews.com, vogons.org and vogons.zetafleet.com - there's more than enough on such issues.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

TBeholder wrote:
ermo wrote: Just tried Privateer Original in a DOSBox...
I got GG to run on the newest VS,
My first impression is that the lasers in particular are too slow compared to PO
Turn off that stupid gun_speed_adjusted_game_speed first of all.
It turns out it was never turned on in the first place (and I never explicitly turned it on either, btw.)
TBeholder wrote:
Deus Siddis wrote:Before comparing speed differences between PO and GG, you may wish to make certain that dosbox is running PO at exactly the right speed (however that is defined). It might be the discrepancy is due to your dosbox settings alone.
...also true.
ermo wrote:Not an unreasonable suggestion. Trouble is, I can't really seem to find any DosBOX guides telling me how to make my C2D E7500 @~2.93GHz reliably behave like an i486 DX2 66 MHz or a Pentium 100 (for instance).

"Cycles" means "cycles per millisecond", usually core=dynamic, cputype is explicit and straightforward - e.g. "486_slow", memory is explicit and straightforward too, sound buffer - experiment a little if there are problems. Or just search for "privateer +dosbox" - yahoo gives pages on dosbox.com, wcnews.com, vogons.org and vogons.zetafleet.com - there's more than enough on such issues.
I tried using these suggestions from wcnews.com and that made things run much too slowly, in the sense that music and gameplay slowed way down to the point where the music was hardly music anymore. Using cputype=pentium_slow or cpu_type=i486_slow resulted in a similar experience.

Fiddling with the settings, I saw what I perceived to be the smoothest, most enjoyable gameplay (including sound at what approached normal speeds) with the attached DosBOX settings, a hopefully relevant excerpt of which you can find below:

Code: Select all

# I'm using Fedora 19 w/NVidia closed drivers and a GS 7800 AGP w/DosBOX v0.74 from the fedora repos
# [sdl]
# I like the slightly smoothed 2x scaling of OpenGL
output=opengl 

# [dosbox]
# The default graphics card
machine=svga_s3 

#[cpu]
core=dynamic
cputype=auto
# When I tried the wcnews settings, it turned out that I needed to go to around 100000 cycles
# to get the output feeling reasonably fluid (yes really!) -- and the DosBOX documentatation suggested
# using cycles=auto if it was necessary to go past 20000 cycles, so cycles=auto it is.
cycles=auto

#[mixer]
blocksize=1024
prebuffer=20
The biggest thing is that in PO, the Tarsus starts/stops turning the instant I press/release the keyboard. Obviously, neither of the VS-based remakes do that (per design). So that may also contribute to the feeling that VS-based games are slower to respond. Of course, this behaviour is also more true to the laws of physics (and I actually prefer the proper simulation approach).

The lasers do stll feel too slow in GG compared to my PO experience. By my estimate (and I stress that this is merely a subjective estimate) we're talking at least by a factor of 2 and possibly more.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

ermo (Per PU/GG) Yeah. I was blending all three (PU, GG, and an archive of WCU) to get what I was aiming for. Comp interfaces are little to me. So build off whatever works for you.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by Deus Siddis »

ermo wrote: The lasers do stll feel too slow in GG compared to my PO experience. By my estimate (and I stress that this is merely a subjective estimate) we're talking at least by a factor of 2 and possibly more.
This may be worth bringing up with GG at some point. Assuming they are approachable, I have never interacted with them. But I believe their goal is a very faithful recreation of PO, so if the lasers (and other weapons?) were faster in PO and this can be demonstrated then I imagine they will fix the discrepancy.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Travis,

I'm still tinkering. :)

I have updated the debug.py module verbatim from VS and have instrumented a lot of the existing modules in your PU + GG + WCU archive with the debug.debug() functions instead of print() functions -- this allows me to better understand which module does what, which is a huge boon when trying to figure out why something doesn't work. It's worth mentioning that VS already does this as well.

I haven't tried out my changes with the latest VS windows binaries (python 2.7 etc), but if you're still interested, I'll make sure to test it under Windows and give you a heads up when I've done so?

As I've been updating the python modules, it has seemed to me that much of the code is very similar to the VS python module code. So ideally, I'd like to update as much of the existing python code to correspond with the newest VS equivalent. I would attempt to keep Privateer specific code to a minimum and ideally separate it out into its own modules in a privateer/ subfolder, or alternatively, make sure that the custom code/functions are marked as such.

Also, the more I instrument the code, the easier it seems to be to determine what to fix next, which feels nice -- virtuous cycles and all... :D
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

Sounds good, ermo! Yeah, I'd still like to play with it at some point, just got it running and started into the data entry and burned out. If you need cockpit shots or something let me know, I've got every WC game but Prophecy running in DosBox. I also have the manuals and Secrets of the Wing Commander Universe, so I can give you all kinds of stats (Plus the unified gun info in the zip!) But sounds like you are trying to polish the engine a bit more first.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

As I don't know much about the WC Universe, I think you can provide some very valuable insight into the canon lore side of things, yes.

As far as the engine goes, I'd qualify it by stating that there's the VS engine proper (C++) which is shared across partial and full conversions, and then there's the game scripting runtime (python) which has a structure which can be shared across similar universe settings, but which will rarely be 100% identical. As I've mentioned, I'm working on instrumenting the PU scripting runtime which is what you seem to haved used for your mashup? :D

From what I have seen of the GG runtime -- and I've only had a cursory look -- it seems to have been maintained with more tender loving care and with an eye to the bigger picture of how to achieve a cohesive Privateer Original Remake experience, whereas the PU runtime seems to be in a state more like a somewhat unkempt garden without a head gardener. So you could say that I'm trying to form an idea on how to best trim and reshape the garden of PU for your WC Universe theme park dream to be feasible.

Currently, I'm just clearing out the weeds, repairing the signs and ensuring that the paths to various parts of the garden are not too overgrown. And yes, it's a bit of work, but as long as I enjoy it, I think (and hope!) it will be worth it in the end. :mrgreen:
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

Oh and Travis? What do you want to call this thing?

I think that 'Privateer Remake 2012' is probably not the best name given that we're already in 2013 and that I might not be done before christmas if the timelines on my previous projects are any indication... :mrgreen:

I read up a little on the history of Privateer Remake as well as WCU, and chuck once mentioned in 2009 that PU was rooted in -- and the closest thing to -- the now all but defunct WCU. So I'd be fine with its working title being Wing Commander Privateer Universe, emphasizing it being a cross between canon WC lore and the extended possibilities explored in Privateer Parallel Universe (on which it will also mostly be built), but also without the more, er, interesting liberties taken in the non-canon parallel universe as such.

Whaddyathink?
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

Perhaps "Privateer: Wing Commander Universe"? I should be able to redo the title screen to be just about anything.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by ermo »

travists wrote:Perhaps "Privateer: Wing Commander Universe"? I should be able to redo the title screen to be just about anything.
+1 -- independently of you, I began using the folder ".priv_wcu" to store save games and user configuration a week or two ago.

BTW did you model and render the current loading screens? I we could, I would prefer getting rid of the orignal PO start screen and simply use modernized, high-res screens. The first Privateer Remake had a high-res loading screen, right? Maybe we could repurpose that?
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

I did these:
Image
Image
Image
Could do more (or redo) just let me know what you want art for.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by klauss »

You have z-fighting on your second render.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by pheonixstorm »

Deus Siddis wrote:
ermo wrote: The lasers do stll feel too slow in GG compared to my PO experience. By my estimate (and I stress that this is merely a subjective estimate) we're talking at least by a factor of 2 and possibly more.
This may be worth bringing up with GG at some point. Assuming they are approachable, I have never interacted with them. But I believe their goal is a very faithful recreation of PO, so if the lasers (and other weapons?) were faster in PO and this can be demonstrated then I imagine they will fix the discrepancy.
Actually its whatever Klauss or myself can do. John hasn't been around in years, though I did get him to add me as forum admin and a dev for the svn. I just haven't really had the time for anything. Or the motivation it seems...

As far as GG goes.. It still uses VS .5 for the engine and we can still compile current svn to use spheremaps rather than cubemaps. So the only real change needed for GG is to update the core python code.
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Re: Frankenstein’s Monster is Alive!!

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:You have z-fighting on your second render.
Yeah... I have similar artifacts on occasion. Usually it is tow faces occupying nearly the same face that I can't seem to isolate and separate.
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