Speech and Sound
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@chuck_starchaser:
Nope. Never played Jazz. I stick to "classical" music, which is what I like. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't if it was fit. I'm not that much against Jazz. But my dad would never play it. In his words: "Jazz is not music". He has a point, up to a point. But for the record, I think he misses the fact that Music is what people consider it being so, and if they think Jazz is Music, it's not our place to argue.
Nope. Never played Jazz. I stick to "classical" music, which is what I like. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't if it was fit. I'm not that much against Jazz. But my dad would never play it. In his words: "Jazz is not music". He has a point, up to a point. But for the record, I think he misses the fact that Music is what people consider it being so, and if they think Jazz is Music, it's not our place to argue.
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OFF TOPIC
I don't agree he has a point, even "to a point", and in fact I don't even believe that he really believes what he says. I think he simply adopted the condescending *attitude* of many people in the classical music cliques, like "we are better, we know better, thou hast no taste". It's a childish and Victorian type of thing, like people in the old days sticking out the little pinky while drinking tea and considering those who don't as of inferior class. This attitude, at least in my book, does to *all* of classical music as much damage as Adolf Hitler did to Wagner's music: It associates all of classical music with a distasteful and reprehensible *elitism*. My father had the same attitude as your father; which was at least part of the reason I left home at age 14, and partly the reason the last time I spoke to him was more than 10 years ago, only to have one more big fight over the phone, such that atm I don't even know whether he's alive or dead.
/OFF TOPIC
I don't agree he has a point, even "to a point", and in fact I don't even believe that he really believes what he says. I think he simply adopted the condescending *attitude* of many people in the classical music cliques, like "we are better, we know better, thou hast no taste". It's a childish and Victorian type of thing, like people in the old days sticking out the little pinky while drinking tea and considering those who don't as of inferior class. This attitude, at least in my book, does to *all* of classical music as much damage as Adolf Hitler did to Wagner's music: It associates all of classical music with a distasteful and reprehensible *elitism*. My father had the same attitude as your father; which was at least part of the reason I left home at age 14, and partly the reason the last time I spoke to him was more than 10 years ago, only to have one more big fight over the phone, such that atm I don't even know whether he's alive or dead.
/OFF TOPIC
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OFF TOPIC, BUT SHORT
Well, I realize I didn't give enough detail for you to understand my "he has a point" comment. He does justify his opinion with a strong observation, which may be wrong because, actually, he knows little about Jazz (but, he does know a lot about Music): Jazz lacks form. There's no music without form, so he says Jazz is not music. I'm sure you'll reply that Jazz does have form. We could argue 'till time ran out in the universe, since it's both a sensitive issue (calling a music form not music is an attack that usually gets personal) and a subjective one (music is always subjective).
Well, I realize I didn't give enough detail for you to understand my "he has a point" comment. He does justify his opinion with a strong observation, which may be wrong because, actually, he knows little about Jazz (but, he does know a lot about Music): Jazz lacks form. There's no music without form, so he says Jazz is not music. I'm sure you'll reply that Jazz does have form. We could argue 'till time ran out in the universe, since it's both a sensitive issue (calling a music form not music is an attack that usually gets personal) and a subjective one (music is always subjective).
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OFF TOPIC, AND GETTING SHORTER..
I think a good comparison to the form argument would be if I were to say that only regular polyhedra "have form". A polygon with 19 unequal sides, a couple of occurrences of concavity, and maybe a hole somewhere, does "have form", the only gottcha is that we don't have a name for it. So what? By such an argument, one would say that a cow "has no form". To me, a lot of classical music is like colorful, regular polyhedra. After a while I get sick of it and need my cows, rabbits and foxes.
I think a good comparison to the form argument would be if I were to say that only regular polyhedra "have form". A polygon with 19 unequal sides, a couple of occurrences of concavity, and maybe a hole somewhere, does "have form", the only gottcha is that we don't have a name for it. So what? By such an argument, one would say that a cow "has no form". To me, a lot of classical music is like colorful, regular polyhedra. After a while I get sick of it and need my cows, rabbits and foxes.
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Hehe. That was a funny example.
I get you. That's why I said music is subjective. I, personally, don't like most Jazz. But there are some very good Jazz pieces out there. Anyway, back to the subject:
What's the prospect for having non-original (classical or not) music at some point? I mean, original is not always better. Sometimes, a well known piece can get the message much better than any original composition could (because of the well-known attribute).
I get you. That's why I said music is subjective. I, personally, don't like most Jazz. But there are some very good Jazz pieces out there. Anyway, back to the subject:
What's the prospect for having non-original (classical or not) music at some point? I mean, original is not always better. Sometimes, a well known piece can get the message much better than any original composition could (because of the well-known attribute).
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Well, Ravel can't sue us; but Alexander Gibson could if we used his orchestral recording of it. Actually I'm not sure he's still alive, but his recording label probably is...
Anyhow, if you play Ravel we're safe
(PS: I dare you to listen to a piece by Miles Davis called "Fat Time" and tell me it's not a work of genius so great it beats half the classics down to a friggin pulp.)
Anyhow, if you play Ravel we're safe
(PS: I dare you to listen to a piece by Miles Davis called "Fat Time" and tell me it's not a work of genius so great it beats half the classics down to a friggin pulp.)
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I think a non original peice or two would be fitting. I wouldn't wat to see the whole soundtrack be made up of such, but throwing in some well known peice (or two) can be done well. 2001 of course comes to mind, as does the sudden presence of Ray Charles in Metropolis (Osamu Tezuka's, not Fritz Lang's). Of course, to one more familiar with music, each of those two films may have had more than one or two familiar tracks
If some can be found that matches the VS atmosphere, why not coopt it. my 2 centicreds
If some can be found that matches the VS atmosphere, why not coopt it. my 2 centicreds
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From 2001: Is the music for "Thus Spake Zarathustra" public domain? I know the actual recording is probably copyright protected, but is the music itself? It would be great to hear on occasion when launching.
(p.s. For those unfamiliar with the name of the song, it's the one that has the timpanis (kettle drums))
(p.s. For those unfamiliar with the name of the song, it's the one that has the timpanis (kettle drums))
I've stopped playing. I'm waiting for a new release.
I've kicked the MMO habit for now, but if I maintain enough money for an EVE-Online subscription, I'll be gone again.
I've kicked the MMO habit for now, but if I maintain enough money for an EVE-Online subscription, I'll be gone again.
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Of course the music itself is public domain. I don't even think copyright law existed back in the days of Richard Strauss. But don't you think Thus Spoke's been a bit overused, though? Besides, back in the days of Apollo, launching rockets into space --not to speak of going to the moon-- was a spectacular achievment, worthy of spectacular music; but in VS we're launching every few minutes...
In any case, if we're going to use classics, we might as well use something that's not overused, or *too* well known. In my mind that would disqualify Holst's The Planets, Beethoven's 5th, etceteras. And it's part of the reason I suggested La Valse: I haven't even heard it on radio in probably a year. Not that there aren't a million other pieces I haven't heard in a year, or in my lifetime; but La Valse happens to be quite evocative Blue Danube, evocative enough that most people will get the reference; while at the same time very different and much more complex, so complex as to hint at "making fun" of waltzes in general. I think that if we use it, many, many people will be asking "what piece is that?"
In any case, if we're going to use classics, we might as well use something that's not overused, or *too* well known. In my mind that would disqualify Holst's The Planets, Beethoven's 5th, etceteras. And it's part of the reason I suggested La Valse: I haven't even heard it on radio in probably a year. Not that there aren't a million other pieces I haven't heard in a year, or in my lifetime; but La Valse happens to be quite evocative Blue Danube, evocative enough that most people will get the reference; while at the same time very different and much more complex, so complex as to hint at "making fun" of waltzes in general. I think that if we use it, many, many people will be asking "what piece is that?"
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Ditto.
Kubrick and crew had well-studied reasons to select those themes. What we need to imitate is the selection process: we should find something evocative that not only 'goes along' with the emotional tone but actually adds something of its own and helps building this emotional moment. This is what music does in 2001.
I like Holszt's, particularily the majestic second half of Jupiter. And Mars... makes me feel in the middle of a battlefield. Actually, the mystic planet works well for space travel. Besides the obvious relationship, I think it'd work as incidental music. That I'd vote for.
Kubrick and crew had well-studied reasons to select those themes. What we need to imitate is the selection process: we should find something evocative that not only 'goes along' with the emotional tone but actually adds something of its own and helps building this emotional moment. This is what music does in 2001.
I like Holszt's, particularily the majestic second half of Jupiter. And Mars... makes me feel in the middle of a battlefield. Actually, the mystic planet works well for space travel. Besides the obvious relationship, I think it'd work as incidental music. That I'd vote for.
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I have a strong feeling I once played a game that used The Planets, but I don't remember which. Or maybe it was a movie; but I doubt it because I also have the feeling that several, if not all of the planets were in it, whatever it was. But perhaps "overused" was overstated...
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Changing the subject, I had an epiphany yesterday:
We don't just need race-specific music for when we're in a certain race's space, but also to refer to those race's deeds:
1) Flying in Rlaan space
2) Hostile Rlaan make their appearance
3) Hostile Rlaan are pounding you to death
4) Friendly Rlaan make their appearance
5) Friendly Rlaan kill your enemies
6) Rlaan are winning
7) Rlaan are loosing
Get the idea? so the DJ (that's what the music-sequencing module in python is called) could analyze the situation, and sequence the music accordingly. So, when I'm in a sticky situation, and call for help (assuming someday I will be able to ), and Rlaan patrols come to the rescue, I play the corresponding music, even if I'm in Aeran space. Also, if I'm in Rlaan space, and an Aeran strike force jumps in-system, I would hear the Aeran theme popping in.
Nice idea, huh? Also, quite obvious. I don't know why it didn't come earlier. I guess I had to sleep to start thinking (I've been sleeping too little lately ) - or perhaps talking about Wagner made me remember the leith-motif approach. Who knows.
We don't just need race-specific music for when we're in a certain race's space, but also to refer to those race's deeds:
1) Flying in Rlaan space
2) Hostile Rlaan make their appearance
3) Hostile Rlaan are pounding you to death
4) Friendly Rlaan make their appearance
5) Friendly Rlaan kill your enemies
6) Rlaan are winning
7) Rlaan are loosing
Get the idea? so the DJ (that's what the music-sequencing module in python is called) could analyze the situation, and sequence the music accordingly. So, when I'm in a sticky situation, and call for help (assuming someday I will be able to ), and Rlaan patrols come to the rescue, I play the corresponding music, even if I'm in Aeran space. Also, if I'm in Rlaan space, and an Aeran strike force jumps in-system, I would hear the Aeran theme popping in.
Nice idea, huh? Also, quite obvious. I don't know why it didn't come earlier. I guess I had to sleep to start thinking (I've been sleeping too little lately ) - or perhaps talking about Wagner made me remember the leith-motif approach. Who knows.
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I don't get it. Why would they need to be more complex?so my "layered" songs now need to be a whole lot more complex?
It's just additional work: new tracks. Like Darth's vader theme in Star Wars, or the Borg's theme in Star Trek, there would be an Aeran theme. But, as opposed to the films, the Aeran could be seen as "good people" in some situations (they're helping you), and "bad people" in others (they're killing you), so there would be two approaches for the same theme: one that conveys a "bad" feeling, and the other one with a "good" feeling.
We would still need the "battle" and "ambience" tracks, since sometimes there's nothing specific happening. The hard part is that, possibly, theme tracks would not just be for races, but for factions too: a separate theme for ISO and Luddite would be recommendable, as another for the Military types, etc.
Of course, there's no need to do that always. But I was thinking that the DJ could make real good use of such tracks, and it would enrich background music a ton.
I'm thinking of making the DJ and soundserver very flexible. Perhaps scripting the DJ script itself (a script for the script), in the form of, probably, an external data structure that could be imported from race or faction-specific modules. So that, once the base code is done, changing the way tracks are sequence doesn't require handling the code, but merely data structures.
PS: What do you mean by layered? The intro/loop/outro division?
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Okay, so if I'm passing by an Aera/Rlaan fight and the Aera are winning, do I hear Aera Winning music or Rlaan Losing music or both? This is indeed getting complicated, and what's worse, we seem to have turned 180 degrees from the original aims, which were to have a system where artists could call the shots. Now everything is rigidly structured. If we keep going this route, all the music will sound the same.
I'd rather see all this get back to where a composer comes up with a piece and says "I dreamt of a horrible Rlaan defeat, and in the dream I heard this music...", and if so we have a flexible system that allows us to specify that this piece is for Rlaan defeats. And someone comes up with a piece for a pirate wedding, and we have a way to specify this piece is for pirate weddings in space. And transitions be damned.
I'd rather see all this get back to where a composer comes up with a piece and says "I dreamt of a horrible Rlaan defeat, and in the dream I heard this music...", and if so we have a flexible system that allows us to specify that this piece is for Rlaan defeats. And someone comes up with a piece for a pirate wedding, and we have a way to specify this piece is for pirate weddings in space. And transitions be damned.
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i must not of explained what i meant by "layered" well enough early on. Basically, I want to make it so one "song" has many different possible ways to play through it depending on the mood. This way, a song will sound different depending on the mood, but still be basically the same song. Each different moods' sound is a "layer", i don't mean by it that i have lots of instruments playing on top of each other. Its just a way to make it way easier to make songs link, thats all.
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I'll make you a deal. Not that my jocular vote for The Planets actually makes a difference, but I'll change it if you name a space movie or game that audiences commonly associate with the music. For a more comfortable term, substitute 'overused' for 'done to death'.chuck_starchaser wrote:I have a strong feeling I once played a game that used The Planets [...] perhaps "overused" was overstated...
When it comes to original themes, electronica's more feasible, of course. There's people in this discussion who do compose it, some of them very prolific . (Imagine playing Vangelis's Antartica as you enter the solar system for the first time.)
Regarding an adaptable system for playing a tune depending on setting, I wonder if the folks at ScummVM.org implemented an equivalent to the iMUSE system LucasArts used for that purpose. (ScummVM is all GPL.)
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I pass; I'm not the type that would ever win a game of trivia; I forget names of movies, books, games, as well stores and streets ... I'm still trying to remember what it was that had the Planets in it. You definitely win.CubOfJudahsLion wrote:I'll make you a deal. Not that my jocular vote for The Planets actually makes a difference, but I'll change it if you name a space movie or game that audiences commonly associate with the music. For a more comfortable term, substitute 'overused' for 'done to death'.chuck_starchaser wrote:I have a strong feeling I once played a game that used The Planets [...] perhaps "overused" was overstated...
That is a wonderful thought! What a perfect fit! (Though, see? Here again: I know I've heard Antarctica used as theme for something or other, but can't remember what.) What about licensing issues, though? But you're right about Vangelis, hard to think of anything more expansive. And on top of that it would be no rocket science to play.When it comes to original themes, electronica's more feasible, of course. There's people in this discussion who do compose it, some of them very prolific . (Imagine playing Vangelis's Antartica as you enter the solar system for the first time.)
If licensing is a non-issue, I'm sure Philipe Glass could fit somewhere. Acid Mothers Temple too, but not much electronica there; and it would have to be original track material...
If you like Vangelis, you must be familiar with Andreas Vollenweider? He's turned the classic harp into a percussion instrument... I was wondering if his stuff could fit in VS... and it occurred to me, once we have multiplayer, and if players get organized to fly together in convoys, for long, dangerous cargo hauls, it would be fun, and Vollenweider's music would go in perfect for the trip...
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/goodies/ ... 0Dance.mp3
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/goodies/ ... 0Dance.mp3
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/goodies/ ... 0Wheel.mp3
The above would be for the trip; the next one on safe arrival to the destination:
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/goodies/ ... 20Love.mp3
It's a bit spacey, expansive, has moving beat, and a bit of a nomadic, gypsy flavor to it, I find; almost made for travel in convoys.
(I won't leave the above files on the server past the weekend, tho.)
What about Harry Partch's Petals Fell in Petaluma for alien music? With detunable synths, like the old DX7's, it should be doable.
For another Classic, whenever the player does something benevolent and unselfish, like freeing slaves, we could play Cesar Frank. His Symphony in D minor, I think it's called (he only wrote one, IIRC) gives me overwhelming feelings of unselfishness and detachment, whenever I hear it. I'm sure Klauss would enjoy playing it on the piano, too.
I'll check it out.Regarding an adaptable system for playing a tune depending on setting, I wonder if the folks at ScummVM.org implemented an equivalent to the iMUSE system LucasArts used for that purpose. (ScummVM is all GPL.)
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About flexibility: don't worry. I'm always aiming at letting composers choose. I'm just thinking more and more possibilities. I'll probably put them all in, even the much hated transition scheme. If anyone wishes to use it, it's there. If not, it can be ignored.
About the rlaan-vs-aera dilemma... a true dilemma indeed. I guess it should be decided according to reps: if you're friends with rlaan, rlaan loosing. If you're friends with aera, aera winning. But, I think it should be more complex: if you're just passing by, it would call for "danger" feel, rather than win/loose, since I think win/loose would be reserved for battles you're being part of. How to make VS detect that situation is another issue.
I've been thinking about such rules the entire weekend. It's not easy, but it will shape up.
About the rlaan-vs-aera dilemma... a true dilemma indeed. I guess it should be decided according to reps: if you're friends with rlaan, rlaan loosing. If you're friends with aera, aera winning. But, I think it should be more complex: if you're just passing by, it would call for "danger" feel, rather than win/loose, since I think win/loose would be reserved for battles you're being part of. How to make VS detect that situation is another issue.
I've been thinking about such rules the entire weekend. It's not easy, but it will shape up.
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That was my main concern, actually. It's good that Zaydana got the inspiration to write layered music for ease of transitioning, but I was concerned about forcing every potential composer into having to structure their music rigidly to fit into a scheme.klauss wrote:About flexibility: don't worry. I'm always aiming at letting composers choose. I'm just thinking more and more possibilities. I'll probably put them all in, even the much hated transition scheme. If anyone wishes to use it, it's there. If not, it can be ignored.
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disregard this if i read it wrong, but i think the whole "layered" (that word needs to change) tracks idea is going to make it easier for other composers to fit their stuff in... thats one of the reasons i said it Easier, because then each bit of music is self-contained, and can switch to other bits with a let less regard for what the other bits are going to be. Won't sound as good, but will be easier for everybody to write to.
btw, srry bout this lack of music coming in, i got way too much school atm. Holidays in a week and a bit tho, so you shuold start seeing some then.
btw, srry bout this lack of music coming in, i got way too much school atm. Holidays in a week and a bit tho, so you shuold start seeing some then.
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Zay: I understood it from the beginning, and I totally agree. It's far easier. So much easier that it will compell composers to write music for VS. But still, if anyone finds the will to pull off the transition scheme, I'll try to make it possible to mix both approaches. In fact, I think I'll implement the layered scheme as a special and automated case of the general transition scheme.
Also, if you find yourself composing ambience, remember the real multi-layer idea: multiple tracks, with different lengths, looping independently. I'll add multitrack support to the soundserver so that multiple tracks can be played simultaneously.
Also, if you find yourself composing ambience, remember the real multi-layer idea: multiple tracks, with different lengths, looping independently. I'll add multitrack support to the soundserver so that multiple tracks can be played simultaneously.
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