
I think we should find out how to keep them destrucable and get them to keep in one damn spot.
Sure. I still like my funny idea of ending up intact but buried in snow when hitting a large ice one ...Dilloh wrote:I often need to think of other SciFi-genres when talking about asteroids. I remember a Star Trek episode when they hide out in an ice asteroid. I'd say one could make the ice asteroids 'dockable' in some way similar to a cloak: your foe would need to shoot the ice to find you.
Not "jamming" exactly; your previous term, "cloaking" is more appropriate. And in fact, being behind any object, for that matter; "out of the line of sight", should make two ships invisible to each other in the sensor screen. This might be easy to implement.Also, asteroids should have a radar jamming function, according to their size and quantity.
I'm totally with you there. the fields should be much larger, and the density should be kind of gradually increasing towards the center, like a gaussian function, rather than a sharp change in density. With the current approach it would be a horrendous performance hog to have fields that are denser AND larger; but using hardware fog, and only showing asteroids that are within the range of the fog's visibility would be a much better approach, which would allow AF's of virtually unlimited size.I'd like to see the total size of the AFs enlarged, with asteroids of total different sizes (like in star wars) and yes, little to no movement.
Not sure about the gravitation fields but I agree about the other justifications for slight asteroid movement. And, in any case, slight amounts of movement (almost imperceptible) would make them more believable, if slightly less realistic, so why not? I'm all for it.Still, a certain movement is reasonable for in 2669, there are other influences than we can think of today: space traffic, mining ships, or just fighters hittings the asteroids with their arms. That doesn't only split the rocks, but also gives them movement. Especially around mining bases, those movements are reasonable. Plus, mining bases would surely decide to produce a light gravitation field to keep the rocks together.
I like this one too, still we're ending up in realism? A ship capable of reaching light speed should be able to dig itself free from snow in seconds.Sure. I still like my funny idea of ending up intact but buried in snow when hitting a large ice one ...
I'd favor this, we would go back to a simple technique from the original privateer where the game generated a bulb of asteroids around the player (notice that your opponents never had their own bulb). However, performance would dramatically decrease the more ships are around which also needed a bulb on their own if you'd decide to not only leave the disadvantage of asteroids to humans. Plus, I say: Multiplayer!using hardware fog, and only showing asteroids that are within the range of the fog's visibility would be a much better approach, which would allow AF's of virtually unlimited size.
Woah, some premonitions for the the big rocks! A sound like hard rain enters my mind! The hairs in my neck are already standing tall!!So, when approaching an AF, first thing one would experience is the sound of random, pebble-sized stones hitting the ship, long before you even see anything around you.
Hmm... I'm surely no expert, but couldn't you just change the visibility (=transparency) of the asteroids change depending on how near the player / his camera is, plus, if the visibility is at 0% (=the player is faw away) only give the really big asteroids 100% visibility? Ah well, maybe implementing fog is the best solution. Didn't GG change to ogre?One problem with the "fog" trick is how one sees the asteroid field from a distance. Should be like fog, but only in the area of the screen the field occupies. I think that rather than hardware fog I'd try implementing this in a fragment shader. I've done a bit of shader work before, but I'm not sure where, in the enginge, the display routines are. It might be quite a challenge for me to get started coding a shader for the VS engine, but if I ever got started I could come up with wonders in no time. Klauss was working on implementing shaders, but he took a long year to not finish it; and now seems to have gone MIA. Well, he was trying to incorporate an Ogre3D back end to go with it, too; but implementing shaders per se doesn't require a change of the whole rendering pipeline. I might download the current svn and try and see if I can figure out where to throw in a shader...
Yeah, and hitting snow at "kilometers per second" would be fatal, too; but then again, the visual representation in game is approximately same number of "METERS per second". And there's no lightspeeds involved at all. Jumps are like wormholes. AFAIK there's not even a mention of ships traveling at near light speeds in WC. But then again, to get across a system in a few hours would require FTL travel. But then again, planets and systems are incredibly tiny in the WC universe...Dilloh wrote:I like this one too, still we're ending up in realism? A ship capable of reaching light speed should be able to dig itself free from snow in seconds.
EXACTLY!I'd favor this, we would go back to a simple technique from the original privateer where the game generated a bulb of asteroids around the player (notice that your opponents never had their own bulb).
Then again, do we really care to have bulbs for ships outside our visual range? I'd say one bulb is enough; just compute collisions for enemy ships within the player's bulb. For enemy ships outside visual range we can just randomly add collision effects (damage).However, performance would dramatically decrease the more ships are around which also needed a bulb on their own if you'd decide to not only leave the disadvantage of asteroids to humans.
Uh? Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to synchronize asteroid fields across the internet? Specially if you can blow up asteroids, and all other players have to be updated that asteroid # such and so split into two fragments, traveling along vectors ...Plus, I say: Multiplayer!
Glad you like it. That was indeed the feeling I had in mind: Games don't have to kill you to be fun; they just have to terrify you.Woah, some premonitions for the the big rocks! A sound like hard rain enters my mind! The hairs in my neck are already standing tall!!
Hmm... I'm surely no expert, but couldn't you just change the visibility (=transparency) of the asteroids change depending on how near the player / his camera is, plus, if the visibility is at 0% (=the player is faw away) only give the really big asteroids 100% visibility? Ah well, maybe implementing fog is the best solution.
Where did you hear that? Not that I know of, but then again, what do I know?Didn't GG change to ogre?
Excuse me, but according to Einstein, a wormhole is a shortcut in bended space which is either produced synthetically (=by bending space which is of course not proven at this time) or naturally (like in WC where jump points are just markings). I either don't see the reason for jump drives then for any wormhole should be accessible for any standard engine, or the jump drive generates massive speed, and therefor is able to accumulate reactor power and / or fuel power to a highest point until everything is released in a single, short acceleration.And there's no lightspeeds involved at all. Jumps are like wormholes.
Not in text, but regarding e.g. the original Privateer jump animation you see how your ship transforms into a flash of light and passes the stars at a warp factor similar to Star Trek animations - which can be considered as standards for any kind of that animations.AFAIK there's not even a mention of ships traveling at near light speeds in WC
I didn't want to convince you to forget about it, I like the idea. If we'd go for total realism, we could turn out our sound boxes, forget about oval-shaped 4-emitter-shields, possibly even forget about antigravitation fields, etc. I just think we should make clear that we appreciate realism, but favor gameplay. Plus, I must admit, being burried in snow currently reminds me of Duke Nukem 3D's freezer gun - a ship being frosted in an asteroid is something maybe too radically new in a genre that has hardcore-fans running at conventions and asking actors how they can afford to be Vulcans and still have emotions at the sametime.But then again, to get across a system in a few hours would require FTL travel. But then again, planets and systems are incredibly tiny in the WC universe...
Alright, forget about getting buried in snow.
I'd first say that foes should have the bulb too, so that the odds are okay, but after some thoughts I believe that the AI is and forever will be too dumb to evade the asteroids like a human player (I saw Orions afterburning towards Nexus - whole squadrons wiped out by collisions), so I think it's okay if the KI only has to dodge asteroids when coming nearer to the player.Then again, do we really care to have bulbs for ships outside our visual range? I'd say one bulb is enough; just compute collisions for enemy ships within the player's bulb. For enemy ships outside visual range we can just randomly add collision effects (damage).
No, but I have an idea to solve that: give them a schedule / movement pattern. Let's say asteroid0579 begins movement number 5 at 16:00h GMT - so you'd only have to send the sync information of it being destroyed to all players.Uh? Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to synchronize asteroid fields across the internet?
Well, you should limit those infos to players who are actually in the relevant system. You also have vectors, shield informations, projectiles, ships, laser bolts, etc. from other units.all other players have to be updated that asteroid # such and so split into two fragments, traveling along vectors ...
I enjoyed playing ipx net or zeromodem games like doom in the garage of a friend 15 years ago, but I think massive multiplayer games are the most aggressive desease the world ever faced - I know guys who have woman and children, stating they are playing WoW "from time to time" while they are at level 59 of 60?!?I hope you're not a big multiplayer fan
Yeah... I think you'll most likely enjoy Sid Meier's "Spore" as soon as it's out...To me, the only multiplayer gaming philosophy worth having would be a persistent universe, with npc ai's so good you can't tell them apart from real player avatars, and where there'd be 3D planets one can walk around and explore and settle and build a house... Well, not specifically, but you know what I mean?
I could simply kiss you (but my girlfriend is sitting next to meIf we were talking about such thing as being able to meet other Drayman owners at a bar and we decide to make a convoy run all together and share the expense of hired escorts, then we're talking.
Never-ending games like Privateer always fascinated me for that.Games don't have to kill you to be fun; they just have to terrify you.
You're the man.Shaders are definitely the way to go.
I read it a long time ago, but I cannot recall where and if it really was GG. I just thought about that for the code of GG is still open source. I also don't have too deep connections with GG --Where did you hear that? Not that I know of, but then again, what do I know?
I'm not sure I like the idea of having an AF just appear suddenly around me. I SHOULD to be able to see it coming, I WANT be able to see it coming (unless the asteroids are in a huge cloud, and then I should be able to see the cloud). Not forgetting that when Priv was made graphics cards topped out at 8Mb, and code was simpler then too. Graphics had to be done certain ways to make things work.Dilloh wrote:I'd favor this, we would go back to a simple technique from the original privateer where the game generated a bulb of asteroids around the player (notice that your opponents never had their own bulb).
Subspace/Continuum is not a disease. It's an a addiction much like heroin, but it leaves smaller track marks. Sorry off topic.Zool wrote: Oh, and I'm very pleased to see that someone else feels the way I do about huge worldwide multi(slaughter)player games. They are a disease.
I have over heard the devs here talking about it.Dilloh wrote:I read it a long time ago, but I cannot recall where and if it really was GG. I just thought about that for the code of GG is still open source. I also don't have too deep connections with GG
Zool wrote:I'm not sure I like the idea of having an AF just appear suddenly around me. I SHOULD to be able to see it coming, I WANT be able to see it coming (unless the asteroids are in a huge cloud, and then I should be able to see the cloud).
Zool, you'll at least hear it coming. Plus, the shaders won't leave you with some sort of dusty cloud. I think chuck is way too competent and motivated to end up with a semi-satisfying solution.chuck wrote:So, when approaching an AF, first thing one would experience is the sound of random, pebble-sized stones hitting the ship, long before you even see anything around you.
Still, the asteroid bulb sounds like a good idea to me. Old techniques could help make WCU available for more systems, less faster machines, which would finally make it more popular.Zool wrote:Not forgetting that when Priv was made graphics cards topped out at 8Mb, and code was simpler then too. Graphics had to be done certain ways to make things work.
As I said, I know guys leaving their family and their jobs behind just for playing WoW or SecondLife.Zool wrote:Oh, and I'm very pleased to see that someone else feels the way I do about huge worldwide multi(slaughter)player games. They are a disease.
I totally agree. The longer you sit around in an AF, the higher the chance you get killed. I tried it for myself - to fill my Tarsus I needed to stay about 5-10min in the AF and got hit several times, even at zero speed.MAS wrote:i've taken up mining and it is hard the way it currently is and it needs to change.
Well, I think there should be reasonable barriers for capships also, like a dreadnought cannot cross a minor river.MAS wrote:Not just mining, as Chunk pointed out that fly a cap ship through them is impossible.
That's interesting... though the asteroids cannot be targeted before shot, the turrets could really need a hotkey ctrl+anything to target the rocks.MAS wrote:maybe get your turrets to shoot the asteroids out of your path like in one of the Star Was movies where the Falcon fly's into the field to escape the Impirals.
Wow, thanks; that's quite a compliment and vote of confidence. Indeed, I first thought of using hardware fog, but then I changed my mind --precisely because of the need to see the "fog cloud" from the distance as you approach it. The only way to do that is with shaders: The vertex shader, given the location of the vertex, the location of the AF's center, density and "mean deviation" of density, or some numbers along the lines, can use a gaussian function (sample and integrate, I guess) to determine a final "visibility factor" for each vertex. This visibility is interpolated in hardware, yielding a per-pixel visibility, which the pixel shader can then use to blend the color of the pixel ("fragment") with some shade of grey or brown, representing the fog, the brightness depending on the amount of light reaching that spot within the AF, which come to think of it, could also be calculated per-vertex in the vertex shader. Nah, it needs to calculate an integration of scattering along the line of sight, plus an integration of scattered sunlight getting injected into the line of sight, as well as sunlight reaching the actual vertex, for illumination modulation purposes... Or something along the lines...Dilloh wrote:Zool, you'll at least hear it coming. Plus, the shaders won't leave you with some sort of dusty cloud. I think chuck is way too competent and motivated to end up with a semi-satisfying solution.
Interesting concept. Might explain why we never see any kat carriers in Gemini, --all the eastern towns are infested with roids, AFAIR.Well, I think there should be reasonable barriers for capships also, like a dreadnought cannot cross a minor river.
Thinking of Gemini: What *I* want to know is -- why are there always more Kilrathi ships in New Detroit than on the border ??chuck_starchaser wrote:Interesting concept. Might explain why we never see any kat carriers in Gemini, --all the eastern towns are infested with roids, AFAIR.
Alright. I'll try to translate that into german and come back next year.chuck wrote:The only way to do that is with shaders: The vertex shader, given the location of the vertex, the location of the AF's center, density and "mean deviation" of density, or some numbers along the lines, can use a gaussian function (sample and integrate, I guess) to determine a final "visibility factor" for each vertex. This visibility is interpolated in hardware, yielding a per-pixel visibility, which the pixel shader can then use to blend the color of the pixel ("fragment") with some shade of grey or brown, representing the fog, the brightness depending on the amount of light reaching that spot within the AF, which come to think of it, could also be calculated per-vertex in the vertex shader. Nah, it needs to calculate an integration of scattering along the line of sight, plus an integration of scattered sunlight getting injected into the line of sight, as well as sunlight reaching the actual vertex, for illumination modulation purposes... Or something along the lines...
I'm not too sure, I think it is the asteroid thing among a mixture of pirates, retros and strategical unimportance what causes both cat and human carriers to better stay at the front. It's a historical fact we've seen e.g. in WW1, when Germany's forces accumulated at the french border near Verdun, fighting for a few meters of ground while they quickly lost their african colonies with much fewer forces against much fewer resistance, but they surely lost more territory and ressources that was conquerable in Europe!chuck wrote:Interesting concept. Might explain why we never see any kat carriers in Gemini, --all the eastern towns are infested with roids, AFAIR.
Among the Grovshner Jump Point, just think a bit: If you were a cat squadron commander, without a mothership, obviously with the objectives of a raiding party, would you stay sitting at the border and wait until a superior ape force arrives to dismantle your ship or would you go deep into the heart of human space, seeking the battle, trying to cause as much damage to the humans as possible, always trying to gain new slaves in the afterworlds? Kilrathi feelings for honor are not comparable to those of e.g. Trek-Klingons. Kilrathi don't mind to shoot an unguarded ship, they only count the number of foes they kill, no matter if they are enemy warriors or just children. They don't need to face confed fighters to gain honor, Draymans also do the job.Shissui wrote:Thinking of Gemini: What *I* want to know is -- why are there always more Kilrathi ships in New Detroit than on the border ??
Dilloh wrote:Alright. I'll try to translate that into german and come back next year.chuck wrote:The only way to do that is with shaders: The vertex shader, given the location of the vertex, the location of the AF's center, density and "mean deviation" of density, or some numbers along the lines, can use a gaussian function (sample and integrate, I guess) to determine a final "visibility factor" for each vertex. This visibility is interpolated in hardware, yielding a per-pixel visibility, which the pixel shader can then use to blend the color of the pixel ("fragment") with some shade of grey or brown, representing the fog, the brightness depending on the amount of light reaching that spot within the AF, which come to think of it, could also be calculated per-vertex in the vertex shader. Nah, it needs to calculate an integration of scattering along the line of sight, plus an integration of scattered sunlight getting injected into the line of sight, as well as sunlight reaching the actual vertex, for illumination modulation purposes... Or something along the lines...![]()
This is space! You can go anywhere! Ok that over, has any one heard of the space game Heagimonia? In it you have to develope different tactics for destroying the foe, and one of my favourites is having 3-5 fighter squads in an AF. As Fighters don't get damaged in them and every other ship does as, the other larger ships gain damage and you can with your lowly fighters evan destroy Battleships! So it is a tactical advantage in AF'sDilloh wrote:Well, I think there should be reasonable barriers for capships also, like a dreadnought cannot cross a minor river.
It would be supported by other games, but this is where my lack of knoledge of Wing Commander comes in. I have never played them, thus i can say whether it is supported or not by WC. It is imaginable as you just get the men in the turrets to shoot at 'roids.Dilloh wrote:That's interesting... though the asteroids cannot be targeted before shot, the turrets could really need a hotkey ctrl+anything to target the rocks.
Someone wrote:Subspace/Continuum is not a disease. It's an a addiction much like heroin, but it leaves smaller track marks.
If i had the internet connection i would be in on world wide multiplayer games only set in the medieval times, but as i said, i lack the internet connection.Someone wrote:Oh, and I'm very pleased to see that someone else feels the way I do about huge worldwide multi(slaughter)player games. They are a disease.
I think that (at least some portion of) these ideas were originally developed in German. Regardless, mere language translation will not help you. If you seriously wish to understand that paragraph, I suggest an undergraduate university level text on modern computer graphics. A very recent book would be much better than an older one -- much of what Chuck is routinely doing now was not possible 10 years ago.Dilloh wrote:Alright. I'll try to translate that into german and come back next year.
Space is a hazardous place... talking about quantum singularities, nebulaes, or gigantic asteroids moving at insane speeds. AFs, as we know them from space sims and movies, don't appear in regular space, more around collapsed planets, in rings or as results of huge collisions. I think a reasonable asteroid field should/would not only have the size of some kilometers, more likely of some thousand of kilometers!MAS wrote:This is space! You can go anywhere!
This question I point to chuck. But I believe that asteroids where once targetable, until one guy had to work on an "intargettable" flag - maybe because the AI ships spent too much time shooting rocks rather than their foes. An idea would be to give turrets special scanners ignoring the flag and "visualizing" the asteroids as foes.MAS wrote:It is imaginable as you just get the men in the turrets to shoot at 'roids.
It's interesting, but most of my english skills rely on my experience with computers. The passage chuck wrote is quite hard to read, still I think I can understand such things much better than -- let's say a similar passage about a new flower discovered in South West East Absurdistan.Shissui wrote:If you seriously wish to understand that paragraph, I suggest an undergraduate university level text on modern computer graphics.
Another fascinating topic is the developement speed of how things come together -- give me a time travel machine and I'll show Chris Roberts what the VS guys have achieved. They'll close down their company immediately. Though many OpenSource projects are still behind current commercial productions, the gap is getting smaller and smaller. I anticipate a future where you no longer pay for your software, not even games - but help developing them. That's Web2.0, guys!Shissui wrote:A very recent book would be much better than an older one -- much of what Chuck is routinely doing now was not possible 10 years ago.
That's also my way, and my final aim for anything in life - learning by doing. But time is also a factor. I currently spend my spare time in looking for a new job, cus my boss fired both my girlfriend and me - so I'll next go for updating my RealLifeOS1.0 to 1.1 --Shissui wrote:Or, if you have lots of time, then you could learn it the way that Chuck did -- by using these features until they made sense.
Never heard that developmental story, but it makes sense. Certainly, if we're going to have NPC's you can hire to "man" turrents, we'll need to make roids targettable, but give them lower priority than enemies; and we'll have to have a "shoot roids" order.Dilloh wrote:This question I point to chuck. But I believe that asteroids where once targetable, until one guy had to work on an "intargettable" flag - maybe because the AI ships spent too much time shooting rocks rather than their foes. An idea would be to give turrets special scanners ignoring the flag and "visualizing" the asteroids as foes.
Sorry about that, I tend to use technical jargon. Basically I was trying to say there's two effects from dust (or "fog" for that matter). Actually just one effect, namely "scattering". So, part of the light (image) of an object at a distance is removed by the scattering.The passage chuck wrote is quite hard to read