Some issues I noticed about the game (pr1.2 w/PU1.1b6-DSE)

[Melonhead]

Launching loads of nukes in space would leave a lot of radiation

Space is full of radiation at every frequency. A million nukes going off would make absolutely no difference in the amount of radiation out there.

Every second, our sun converts 64 million tons of hydrogen into 60 million tons of helium. That's 4 million tons of matter being converted to energy every second. Nothing humans will ever do can compare with that scale.

Now, a nuke going off in a planet's "Van Allen radiation belt" equivalent--that would mess up their satellites, but out in deep space--nothing.

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

I'm taking this to the Offical Board set for this type that we have gotten onto.

MOD: Privateer 1.2 Parallel Universe 1.0

[z30]

With nuker, I'm referring to the super torpedo we are currently planning. Plus, I think we cannot refer to canonity sources too much. The mod is called Parallel Universe and should give us the opportunity to realize things that wouldn't fit 100% into the Wing Commander Universe.

Correct - canon should serve to guide but not to straightjacket. This is an alternate universe afterall.

Canon will help us avoid falling into the pitfall of throwing a mishmash of stuff into the game which will make it a generic space game. I think the last thing that anyone of us wants is to lose the Privateer flavor.

I took the weapons.xml from WCU - the thought at the time was to make PU as compatible with that project as possible. The ships were also made available at the get go to allow easy testing by players.

It was really intended that specific ships would only be available to certain factions & only at a few systems.

[Dilloh]

We're closing up to this aim, z30. Tell us your thoughts about which ship can be found where. With the campaign lockings, you won't be thrown into the game with 30 ship choices.

[z30]

We're closing up to this aim, z30. Tell us your thoughts about which ship can be found where. With the campaign lockings, you won't be thrown into the game with 30 ship choices.

Older ships like the Scimitar & Hornet would probably not be found in rich or powerful centers like NewCon, NewDetroit or Perry. Something more backwater but near important trade routes - Hector, Junction for example.

Raptor - I'm open to suggestions, it's a large & complex fighter though retired.

These mothballed ships would be refurbished & upgraded to an extent depending on the economic wealth of the system. Those units found outside the two I mentioned above would probably have low rated engines & equipment.

I leave it up to the group to decide if these should have no, or maybe less uptodate ECM & other fancy electronics.

Chuck, you're more of a WC buff than anyone here - where would you expect to run into a Ferret,Sabre and newer ships in the Gemini system?

Galaxy variants - NewCon only & mission locked.

Orion variant - I'm thinking of New Caledonia. That's a badly pirate infested corner of the PR universe so tough ships would be very much in demand. Maybe make NC light industrial?

[chuck_starchaser]

Chuck, you're more of a WC buff than anyone here - where would you expect to run into a Ferret,Sabre and newer ships in the Gemini system?

Hahaha, well, only circumstantially. I never played the WC games; only Privateer, RF and Priv 2. I started studying WC history by reading the books and timelines and whatnot, while doing research for WCU projects like Priv 0, WC 0 and Priv 3
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/MOD:WCU:PR0
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/MOD:WCU:WC0
http://www.deeplayer.com/doku/doku.php/wcu:priv3

What ships would be around? Well, Confed ships in pirate hands, we know they came originally through Menesch.

In my mental model of the hidden background to the Priv storyline, I place Menesch as governor of some system in Avalon, couple of years before the start of the war. The way I've been seeing it, and just got it confirmed while reading Action Stations, is that the Confed political parties were cutting the military budget again and again and again in the years before the war; so the military were forced to mothball ships, reduce personnel, etc.

At the same time, there's an organization nobody's yet heard of called the Belisarius Group, who are a secretive bunch within Confed, with members in Black Ops and other spy-like agencies. By 2669, Belisarius have grown in strength and numbers. This is a matter of canon: Tolwyn gets a visit from an old friend, in 2669, David Whittaker, who invites him to become a member of Belisarius. Tolwyn is ambivalent about Belisarius, then and through the rest of WC; trying to stop them --like frustrating their plans to restart the war with the kats, yet trying to do the same kinds of things himself, like when he tries to start a war with Border Worlds.
Anyhow, I would think that, at the beginning, Belisarius was born out of necessity: If the Confed politicians were not going to approve ANY new military projects, they'd have to be done without their knowledge, and financed somehow.

But to get back to Mensesch, I think he's a former Secret Service or Black Ops bureaucrat with a lot of connections, and his becoming a governor is a great opportunity for money laundering, which allows Belisarius to begin selling massive quantities of ships slated for mothballing to the pirates. Pretty soon, Belisarius becomes a second funding source to the military, and being an illegally funded, secretive organization, it soon becomes a massively corrupt organization. By 2669 they have their own Black Ops branch, called Y12, who seem to be "suicide" specialists. Actually, they didn't suicide David Whittaker; I think they just killed him when he disagreed.

But yeah, ships. Well, we got several "waves":

Wave 1:

Before the war, we got a wave of ships sold to pirates. Basically, anything that would have been mothballed at that time is fair game. Just keep in mind that Confed Militias would probably get the same mix of ships as are sold to pirates.

Then we have the start of the war, and Menesch getting deposed. In my Priv 0 storyline, Menesch takes refuge in the Grovsner Colonies. There he meets all sorts of other corrupt, terrorist and secret service types. Grovsner could in fact be where the organizational seat of the Mandarins, who might in fact have been organized by Belisarius. Read the Priv 0 link above for more details.

The mothballing stops at the start of the war, and it's not until a lot of newer ships start coming out of the assembly lines, that Decommissionings get a steady stream of ships sent to them again.

Wave 2:

By then Menesch is gone, and Belisarius will use new distributors for their pirate sales renewal, such as Roman Lynch's father and Dieter Lang. This wave is slow and steady.

Wave 3:

False Peace, 2668. The Kats sue for piece, while using the time to rebuild from their heavy losses. During this time, the Confed politicians swallow the pill and immediately start downsizing the military. That's the time when Menesch decides to come out of hiding, seeing the huge opportunity opening up.
Unfortunately for Menesch, Lynch, Lang and others already own the illegal ships business. They own the Confed suppliers, and they own the pirate consumers.

Wave 4:

That's why Menesch picks a new consumer (the retros) and a new supplier (the kats). He makes a lot of enemies, in the process, including the Merchants Guild (Murphy) and Belisarius (Goodin), so he ends up dead, but not before destroying Lynch's empire.

Wave 3 is the one that really concerns ship balancing concerns in Privateer Universe, because it was the most massive and most recent. So I would say, the question to ask, and research to do (haven't done it yet), is what ships would be the most commonly "mothballed" during the false peace in 2668. I would assume it would be mostly WC2 era ships, as most WC1 era ships would have been sold during Wave 2, and the pitates would probably have wrecked them by 2669.

[chuck_starchaser]

Damn! You were asking "where", not "which ships"...

This would be another good question. There are 4 pirate bases in Gemini, *officially*, but I believe there are many more in hidden systems. "Hidden" as in "off the official maps", just like Eden was off the official maps. The plan in Privateer 3 is to have a sort of "Parallel Universe" of unofficial jump points and systems called the "Grey Zone", where corporations have planets and bases that employ slave labor; where politicians have their secret bases.
The real map would be very 3D, and Grey Zoners call the people of the official world "Flat Landers". Long story. But there'd be one "real" pirate base in a system quite close to Troy. Real pirate bases would be well defended. There you could buy pirate ships, treasure maps and whatnot. But you'd have to become a member of the Brotherhood to get the jump locations to get there in the first place. But you could follow a pirate DraymanCVL and press J right behind him after he jumps; you'd better jump back quickly tho.

[Dilloh]

Older ships like the Scimitar & Hornet would probably not be found in rich or powerful centers like NewCon, NewDetroit or Perry. Something more backwater but near important trade routes - Hector, Junction for example.

Not sure how to implement this, but there are faction-wise spawning points... creating e.g. a different kind of militia for each quadrant would be a solution, so you could flee to Potter if you have trouble with the Humboldt militia. Then reassign the spawning points, and you will only find few Potter militias in Humboldt. Easier would be to create spawning points for certain shiptypes only - I don't know if this one is possible.

Raptor - I'm open to suggestions, it's a large & complex fighter though retired.

These mothballed ships would be refurbished & upgraded to an extent depending on the economic wealth of the system. Those units found outside the two I mentioned above would probably have low rated engines & equipment.

I leave it up to the group to decide if these should have no, or maybe less uptodate ECM & other fancy electronics.

I think that sort of Frankenstein-ship is not equipped too good, but should appear regularly. Just to make sure the pirates have an adequate fleet to defend their many pirate bases.

Chuck, you're more of a WC buff than anyone here - where would you expect to run into a Ferret,Sabre and newer ships in the Gemini system?

Personally, I've encountered Ferrets in WC2... they're not that new at all.

Galaxy variants - NewCon only & mission locked.

Uhm... I'm already working on the locks. I've made a story where a mercenary subfaction gets a contract to take over the defense of a part of the Gemini border. But yeah, we can set up the HK and GS for NewCon only.

Orion variant - I'm thinking of New Caledonia. That's a badly pirate infested corner of the PR universe so tough ships would be very much in demand. Maybe make NC light industrial?

Uhm again... I fear I already have completed and scripted a whole plot for it. A team of scientists who developed the Orion variants have been kidnapped in Varnus. Burrows needs to find them and set the hostages free. If you like I'll set up a zip file of what I've done by now, pm it to you and you can tell me what you think. I'd rather like to reserve New Caledonia for my thought of a pirate story.

So I would say, the question to ask, and research to do (haven't done it yet), is what ships would be the most commonly "mothballed" during the false peace in 2668. I would assume it would be mostly WC2 era ships, as most WC1 era ships would have been sold during Wave 2, and the pitates would probably have wrecked them by 2669.

From my personal taste, I'd then say the pirates need a bomber for tracking down all those frighters, so I'd give them very rare Sabres.

[chuck_starchaser]

Older ships like the Scimitar & Hornet would probably not be found in rich or powerful centers like NewCon, NewDetroit or Perry. Something more backwater but near important trade routes - Hector, Junction for example.

Not sure how to implement this, but there are faction-wise spawning points... creating e.g. a different kind of militia for each quadrant would be a solution, so you could flee to Potter if you have trouble with the Humboldt militia. Then reassign the spawning points, and you will only find few Potter militias in Humboldt.

I like this solution best because it has a basis in reality, because in fact, the local militias are base-specific, and pirates have clans. At minimum, each pirate base should have a different kind of pirates, and a territory it dominates, so have PentonvillePirates, TucksPirates... You might some day want to tweak the ai's of the different pirate clans, or merely have them have distinctive comms in space. Same with militials: Detroit militias, NC militias and Helen militias should have different ships and characteristics. Perhaps, instead of Quadrant Militias, having base type militias, like AgriMilitias, AsteroidMilitias, etc. would make more sense, in some sense; though this doesn't help control spawnings across the map... Hmm... Then again, maybe you don't want to control ship types... Hold on: This is IT: How about Confed militias have quadrant sub-factions; whereas local militias are base-type subtyped?

EDIT:
One problem with subtyping we discussed before in the WCU forum is that it complicates your Info screen. One of those things I've argued for deviating from the original Privateer was to get rid of the info screen, altogether. I never thought it did much for the game. Just IMHO.

[z30]

The real map would be very 3D, and Grey Zoners call the people of the official world "Flat Landers". Long story. But there'd be one "real" pirate base in a system quite close to Troy. Real pirate bases would be well defended. There you could buy pirate ships, treasure maps and whatnot. But you'd have to become a member of the Brotherhood to get the jump locations to get there in the first place. But you could follow a pirate DraymanCVL and press J right behind him after he jumps; you'd better jump back quickly tho.

I like this idea very much, right now it's very hard to make it as a pirate considering that there are no safe havens. Is there a way that complex political backdrop can be woven into PU - even just as bartender dialogue at the very least?

Watching a rerun of the new Battlestar Galactica right now, the politics & manuevering and personal stories give it an edge the original didn't have.

The Brotherhood is a very neat name, fyi.

Orion variant - I'm thinking of New Caledonia. That's a badly pirate infested corner of the PR universe so tough ships would be very much in demand. Maybe make NC light industrial?

Uhm again... I fear I already have completed and scripted a whole plot for it. A team of scientists who developed the Orion variants have been kidnapped in Varnus. Burrows needs to find them and set the hostages free. If you like I'll set up a zip file of what I've done by now, pm it to you and you can tell me what you think. I'd rather like to reserve New Caledonia for my thought of a pirate story.

New Caledonia was also my pick for a "hidden" pirate central - sort of like a dark mirror-twin of NewCon. Sounds like you & Chuck should get together on that pirate story.

Just run with the Varnus plotline Dilloh - curious on the rationale why scientists would make an Orion variant.

[chuck_starchaser]

The real map would be very 3D, and Grey Zoners call the people of the official world "Flat Landers". Long story. But there'd be one "real" pirate base in a system quite close to Troy. Real pirate bases would be well defended. There you could buy pirate ships, treasure maps and whatnot. But you'd have to become a member of the Brotherhood to get the jump locations to get there in the first place. But you could follow a pirate DraymanCVL and press J right behind him after he jumps; you'd better jump back quickly tho.

I like this idea very much, right now it's very hard to make it as a pirate considering that there are no safe havens. Is there a way that complex political backdrop can be woven into PU - even just as bartender dialogue at the very least?

Long, long time ago, at the WCU forum, I came up with this Gray Zone idea. The more people argued against it, the more apparent the necessity of it became, until its existance became an inescapable conclusion. The presence of Kats in New Det, Exploratory Service doing nothing in the past 20 years, then suddenly it turns out they were keeping Eden off the official charts on behalf of the retros. Pirates coming out of nowhere in non-jump-capable Talons, Kats showing up near Sherbrook without a carrier, Corporations, like Azuma Weapons, that don't seem to have an HQ anywhere... Pretty soon you realise the case is water-tight. I convinced everyone about it, in the end, and we were only discussing implementation at some point. What I didn't have then, but I do now, is a copy of Forstchen's Action Stations, where it says "There are thousands of systems between us and the Kilrathi Empire", paraphrasing. Also later in Landreich, the then President of the Landreich explains to young Tolwyn that Landreich spans dozens of systems unofficially occupied, off Confed charts; and that there are similar systems and marginalized peoples on the Kilrathi side, and they do business with one another.
At another point in the book, one Kilrathi says to another, paraphrasing, "the Confederation are not a small empire like the Varni; they have over 100 thousand worlds". I submit, that's a truer number than what the official Confed maps represent, coming from Kat intelligence.

So, the Gray Zone is not so much something I invented as something I discovered It was there all along, in WC canon; one just had to read between the lines.


As for a political explanation, VERY simple: The rate of expansion of the Confederation was so astronomical that governments could not keep up. Think of it this way: Imagine every 24 hours there's a dozen new worlds being colonized. You can count on the colonizers to try and NOT let governments know of their new colony, as they'd rather NOT pay taxes, right? And for the amount of taxes they'd get for a new colony, government would rather not know AND then be expected to spend militias on ensuring law and order there. Not to mention that we live in a world where law and order is something you pay hunters for, not militias...
Meanwhile, there are parts of government that are secretive, need under the table financing, and they will make sure that worlds that want to remain anonymous can do so, for a nominal fee (much lesser tax).
We also have the issue that Belisarious and Y12 and secret military projects like Black Lance (which was probably started long before WC4, perhaps even before the war started), all these things are being funded by sales of decommisioned ships to pirates, so there's yet another reason why the Confed would turn a blind eye to the ES turning a blind eye, to pirates having secure, secret bases.

Would having Gray Zone systems depart from canon? Not in my opinion. Making them obvious and open would of course contradict the fact we don't see them in Priv, and we only see one in RF. So, the right way to present the Gray Zone would be very gradually... Like one system at a time.

R.e.: Pirate base in New Caledonia. Sure. I was thinking of New Caledonia as the HQ base of the Merchants Guild, in Priv0; but that's after they make a deal with the Tucks pirates, so maybe the hidden system where the real pirate base of the tucks pirates could be one or two jumps off the map from New Caledonia, or connect directly between Sherwood and New Caledonia. Just as long as it doesn't have jumps going too near KM252... Well, in my story, KM252 is the first pirate base to align itself with Menesch, whereas Tucks are friends of Lang, who is the one that makes the deal between them and the MG.

[Dilloh]

Hold on: This is IT: How about Confed militias have quadrant sub-factions; whereas local militias are base-type subtyped?

Although that'd be a hell of a work, it's logical. Local militias would have no jump drive then.

One of those things I've argued for deviating from the original Privateer was to get rid of the info screen, altogether

Why that? Create a common militia faction, not spawning any ships, but being affected 1:1 if you destroy a Helen-Militia, a ND-Militia, you name it. Only show the common militia in the info screen, and you have an average.

I like this idea very much, right now it's very hard to make it as a pirate considering that there are no safe havens. Is there a way that complex political backdrop can be woven into PU - even just as bartender dialogue at the very least?

Bartender speeches are easy to implement, but not time- or event related.

New Caledonia was also my pick for a "hidden" pirate central - sort of like a dark mirror-twin of NewCon. Sounds like you & Chuck should get together on that pirate story.

I think NC is a corrupt central, the pirate door to the rest of the universe.

Just run with the Varnus plotline Dilloh - curious on the rationale why scientists would make an Orion variant.

For the money of course - even scientist need to eat something! (maybe engineers sound better)

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

Just run with the Varnus plotline Dilloh - curious on the rationale why scientists would make an Orion variant.

For the money of course - even scientist need to eat something! (maybe engineers sound better)

Yeah, Engineers would sound better.

[chuck_starchaser]

Hold on: This is IT: How about Confed militias have quadrant sub-factions; whereas local militias are base-type subtyped?

Although that'd be a hell of a work, it's logical.

A bit more work: Instead of 4 quadrants, Agri, refinery, mining + NC, ND and Perry; --i.e.: 6.

Local militias would have no jump drive then.

Simpler than that: Talons have no jump drives ...

One of those things I've argued for deviating from the original Privateer was to get rid of the info screen, altogether

Why that? Create a common militia faction, not spawning any ships, but being affected 1:1 if you destroy a Helen-Militia, a ND-Militia, you name it. Only show the common militia in the info screen, and you have an average.

Ah, smart trick. The subject of the info screen came up before at WCU, and at that time everyone seemed to agree it didn't make sense; like you should know who your enemies or friends are, rather than have to look at a screen --like you don't open your PDA wondering "does my girlfriend love me today?". On the other hand, the screen could represent what your ship computer currently thinks you friends and enemies are, for the sake of assigning colors in the sensor screen. But if that's the case, the screen should appear IN your ship, rather than at bases, and perhaps allow you to modify its values, if you think it's in error... No big deal tho.

[Zool]

Simpler than that: Talons have no jump drives ...

Then how would you explain Pirates and Militia Talons in systems where there aren't any of their respective bases, or any base(s) for that matter. Now correct me here, but don't specific factions (or is it ships) spawn in specific systems? Is there more than one spawn point for Pirates and/or Militia? If there's no jump drives on Talons how are they going to get out-system?

[chuck_starchaser]

Simpler than that: Talons have no jump drives ...

Then how would you explain Pirates and Militia Talons in systems where there aren't any of their respective bases, or any base(s) for that matter. Now correct me here, but don't specific factions (or is it ships) spawn in specific systems? Is there more than one spawn point for Pirates and/or Militia? If there's no jump drives on Talons how are they going to get out-system?

Well, in some other thread, sometime ago, I did say that having the Drayman CVL, if nothing else, would help explain the presence of Talons in systems without bases; and suggested that wherever there are talons, except in the case of local militias, I'd put a CVL nearby. I'd also change the AI so that rather than fighting to their deaths, pirates would give up and run back to mama CVL if/when they find you to tough a nut to crack. This is the sort of deviation vs the original I wouldn't mind having seen in the Remake itself, as the behavior of pirates in the original never made much sense to me. The retros are excused, as being complete idiots But I digress... In the case of having hidden systems, the CVL could stay near a jump point to a hidden system. But even without hidden systems, the CVL could just disappear in a puff of light after the escorts are back in it, merely suggesting to the player that there are unofficial jump points in many places.

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

Yeah, i like that, Chuck, Sounds good. The pirates are a little stupid in Privateer.

[z30]

Simpler than that: Talons have no jump drives ...

Then how would you explain Pirates and Militia Talons in systems where there aren't any of their respective bases, or any base(s) for that matter. Now correct me here, but don't specific factions (or is it ships) spawn in specific systems? Is there more than one spawn point for Pirates and/or Militia? If there's no jump drives on Talons how are they going to get out-system?

Well, in some other thread, sometime ago, I did say that having the Drayman CVL, if nothing else, would help explain the presence of Talons in systems without bases; and suggested that wherever there are talons, except in the case of local militias, I'd put a CVL nearby

The Sparrowhawk could be an enhanced/modified Talon capable of mounting a jump drive. Retros would just have regular Talons & would be restricted to local systems - unless a passing Drayman CVL gives them a ride

Sparrowhawks would the the product of pirate skunkworks, this would tie in with it being a faction specific special.

Retros (being idiotic) would probably end up in the middle of a sun if they attempted to jump anyways.

[chuck_starchaser]

Sounds good to me. I just wanted to inject the thought about Talons, because I think PO is pretty plain and clear about talons not being jump capable; like you see Draymans and Centurions jumping, and you hear about Demons jumping during the Palan missions, and you can buy jump drives for all the ships one could buy; but there's never any evidence or reference of Talons jumping.
Notice the reference: "Jump capable -- No":
http://www.wcnews.com/encyclopedia/show ... hp?id=1341
Though I don't necessarily trust those references, but in fact there's good reasons to think they are not jump capable: being decommissioned fighter craft; chances are about zero they'd be jump capable. The first jump capable smallish military craft appear around 2665 (Broadsword heavy bomber), 2667 (Morningstar heavy fighter), Longbow, etc.; but the first jump capable "fighter" in Confed Fleet appears in 2669: The Excalibur.
In Privateer, in 2669, most ships feature jump drives, but that's probably an enormous sacrifice of equipment space --that military craft would rather use for combat related equipment-- for the sake of independence from a carrier, which is so necessary to civilians. But the Talon seems to me too small to even be moddable to make such a space sacrifice.
EDIT:
Other ships that should be NON-jumpy, if they are, include the Stiletto, the Salthi, and the Dralthi II. The Dralthi III is jump-capable, but it looks different, and I'm not sure it exists yet in 2669. Which in my mind would imply that wherever there's Dralthis, there should be some bigger kat ship that brought them in there, unless they are brought in and abandoned...

[z30]

EDIT:
Other ships that should be NON-jumpy, if they are, include the Stiletto, the Salthi, and the Dralthi II. The Dralthi III is jump-capable, but it looks different, and I'm not sure it exists yet in 2669. Which in my mind would imply that wherever there's Dralthis, there should be some bigger kat ship that brought them in there, unless they are brought in and abandoned...

I'm not exactly a fan of ships in that era (re: Dralthi III)- the explanation of the very angular design of the ships as "Kilrathis having no sense of beauty" is - to my mind- a mound of bull.

Only a blind man will describe the Gothri & the Dralthi 2 as ugly ships. This was just an excuse to break away from the older designs (just for the sake of coming up with something new).

I remember someone saying on this forum that this was done to make the Cats less sympathetic - so that no one would feel bad when about nine billion Kilrathi men, women & children were incinerated during the attack on their home world.

How bout the Drakhri?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakhri_medium_fighter

[Dilloh]

like you don't open your PDA wondering "does my girlfriend love me today?".

I don't have a PDA, but if someone invents such a function, I'll buy one.

On the other hand, the screen could represent what your ship computer currently thinks you friends and enemies are

I still like my solution, for the screen states that most of the Militias like you, still there COULD be some around NC who bloody hate you.

But if that's the case, the screen should appear IN your ship

It has its function within bases, you load and save there. I can call functions to repair relations like Lynch does in RF. So you also can show it there, doesn't hurt.

Then how would you explain Pirates and Militia Talons in systems where there aren't any of their respective bases, or any base(s) for that matter. Now correct me here, but don't specific factions (or is it ships) spawn in specific systems? Is there more than one spawn point for Pirates and/or Militia? If there's no jump drives on Talons how are they going to get out-system?

I must concurr, I already have been chased by inter-system-Talons, too. Maybe z30 implemented JDs in the early versions of PU.

[chuck_starchaser]

I must concurr, I already have been chased by inter-system-Talons, too. Maybe z30 implemented JDs in the early versions of PU.

I think it was either Mamiya Otaru or Hellcat, probably the latter, that gave Talons the ability to chase you across systems, but that's an error, canon-wise. Not saying that canon should be resepected in PU, just pointing out. Certainly they shouldn't in PrivRemake if they do. And to me it's more than a matter of canon; also of fun: It was fun to run drugs by avoiding militias when possible, just gunning for the jump points; --at least for me.

[Sunfire]

like you don't open your PDA wondering "does my girlfriend love me today?".

I don't have a PDA, but if someone invents such a function, I'll buy one.

lol... with some of my ex's.... this would be a VERY handy feature... especially if its on a point scale.... you could, with one glance, determine if the relationship is worth working on, or if it is indeed doomed... OR... you would know which days to stay away/bring home flowers and how much she _really_ likes you it would be even handier if it included other factions... like parents...

Then how would you explain Pirates and Militia Talons in systems where there aren't any of their respective bases, or any base(s) for that matter. Now correct me here, but don't specific factions (or is it ships) spawn in specific systems? Is there more than one spawn point for Pirates and/or Militia? If there's no jump drives on Talons how are they going to get out-system?

I must concurr, I already have been chased by inter-system-Talons, too. Maybe z30 implemented JDs in the early versions of PU.

Notice the reference: "Jump capable -- No":

ok... i was wondering where you got the reference on this... so i went back and read the manual... there is NO reference in the priv man as to whether or not ANY ship is jump capable... now... i dont know if the guys at CIC were trying to retcon some stuff... or if they extrapolated from wc 1 and 2 or what... but if the lack of reference to the jump drive is the excuse for not having it... then No ships are jump capable... not even paradigms... it was my impression in the game, and now further reinforced by looking at the manual, that in OP's Universe, _all_ ships are jump capable (whether or not this makes sense in the wing commander game's universe is a different story ) furthermore,

It was fun to run drugs by avoiding militias when possible, just gunning for the jump points; --at least for me.

_no_ ships would follow you inter-system in OP... with one exception, the steltek drone
lol and yeah... i outran quite a bit of enemies in pacifist mode

i post this with one caveat... i am not as familar with RF (as i need to play it again) so if there is a plot specific reason for talons to not have jumps then i am greatly mistaken

[chuck_starchaser]

Okay. Evidence in Privateer, there's plenty. Tarsus, Orion, Galaxy and Centurion you can buy and get jump drives for them.
Centurions you also see one jumping a jump point, in RF (Menesch).
Demons, "they've just entered through Nav 1, you must intercept them..." paraphrasing Lynn Murphy in the Palan missions. Draymans, you escort them from/to jump points in many missions.

Now, obviously Origin had some technical problem getting ships across jump points. What I'm trying to make out is the intended evidence. The hints provided. There are no hints provided to indicate that Talons go through jump points. And this is perfectly consistent with WC:

In WC1 and 2, most ships are NOT jump capable. Only capships are. It makes sense if one considers that a jump drive takes up space and increases the inertial mass of a ship; and that's one of the main reasons why there are carriers. The Talon is a retired confed fighter, in 2669, and therefore would not have had a jump drive.

But Privateer/RF is contemporary with WC3, and at this time we see a new technological wave of innovation and miniaturization in jump drives. Bombers and heavy fighters with jump drives begin to appear from 2665 through 2668, and in 2669 the Confeds come up with the first jump capable fighter, the Excalibur. Note that the type of jump drives these new ships have is different from capship jump drives, and from civilian jump drives: They consume afterburner fuel.

Historically, Privateer Remake originally preserved the non-jumping nature of Talons, as it was in PO. But then, the "too many cooks" syndrome happenned and someone who didn't know what he was doing decided to make Talons chase you around through jump points. If that's still there, it should be removed, IMO.

[Sunfire]

Okay. Evidence in Privateer, there's plenty. Tarsus, Orion, Galaxy and Centurion you can buy and get jump drives for them.
Centurions you also see one jumping a jump point, in RF (Menesch).
Demons, "they've just entered through Nav 1, you must intercept them..." paraphrasing Lynn Murphy in the Palan missions. Draymans, you escort them from/to jump points in many missions.

good points, but not necessarily against the talon

Now, obviously Origin had some technical problem getting ships across jump points. What I'm trying to make out is the intended evidence. The hints provided. There are no hints provided to indicate that Talons go through jump points. And this is perfectly consistent with WC:

point also granted... however i would also posit that the implied evidence is that they have jump drives because,

In WC1 and 2, most ships are NOT jump capable. Only capships are. It makes sense if one considers that a jump drive takes up space and increases the inertial mass of a ship; and that's one of the main reasons why there are carriers. The Talon is a retired confed fighter, in 2669, and therefore would not have had a jump drive.

in OP, there is no mention at all of carriers. none. no mention of draymens carting pirates around, no mention of retro carriers, nothing. no mention of how those bounty mission targets can be in 1 of 3 systems, and most of all no mention of any means of support for ships in uninhabited systems. furthermore, because (relatively) small jump drives are on the market, i see no reason why pirates and retros would not seek to find a way to mount them on talons... because all of their enemies (except militas of course) now have an ability that they do not... the talon is little more than a flying coffin to start with... and with no jump drive, relatively weak loadouts, shields, armor and cargo space, they arent even worthy of being called space junk. meaning that as far as the game universe is concerned... the only way you could catch anyone in a talon is dead... tho it seems the militias sometimes have eject pods. (and probably the retros wouldnt mind... this isnt cannon, but i could see in their minds, that dying 'fighting the good fight' would be cause for great reward in heaven.... otherwise none of them would fly the dam thing )

also, in looking at the drawn pics of the ships in the manual, it IS obvious that based on cockpit size, the talon is very small compared to the centurion (it looks like its no longer than the nosecone of the cent) however, if you compare the cockpit/core body size of the talon and the demon, they look awfully similar... also, the orion's cockpit makes the orion look smaller than the cent (and also the tarsus... but thats to be expected) and the demon and dralthi core bodies are also very similar in size (especially if kats are bigger than humans) its a shame the manual doesnt list ship lengths...

But Privateer/RF is contemporary with WC3, and at this time we see a new technological wave of innovation and miniaturization in jump drives. Bombers and heavy fighters with jump drives begin to appear from 2665 through 2668, and in 2669 the Confeds come up with the first jump capable fighter, the Excalibur. Note that the type of jump drives these new ships have is different from capship jump drives, and from civilian jump drives: They consume afterburner fuel.

very true... and also, im a big fan of the 'grey zone' concept and your idea that in p0 fighters _arent_ jump capable
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