Some issues I noticed about the game (pr1.2 w/PU1.1b6-DSE)

[chuck_starchaser]

in OP, there is no mention at all of carriers. none.

Not sure what you mean; there's plenty of bar rumors mentioning carriers that were lost, like the Winterrowd.

no mention of draymens carting pirates around, no mention of retro carriers, nothing. no mention of how those bounty mission targets can be in 1 of 3 systems, and most of all no mention of any means of support for ships in uninhabited systems.

All true, but there's also no mention of there NOT being retro carriers or pirate Draymans. We just don't see them. But we know there's good technical reasons why we wouldn't see them: The original engine did not handle ships getting through jump points. I think the only time it happens is with Menesch, and that was probably hacked. IOW, would they put a pirate drayman there to explain pirate talons, and then NOT be able to show the drayman jumping a jump point? What I'm trying to make out was the idea, the intent, in Origin's people, and I think the intent is clear when you see a Drayman or a Tarsus or a Galaxy going up to a jump point, at least; which you never see a Talon doing.

furthermore, because (relatively) small jump drives are on the market, i see no reason why pirates and retros would not seek to find a way to mount them on talons...

Okay, this is the million dollar question, indeed. I think they wouldn't be able to fit one, and if they could, it might take too much equipment space, given that the ship is so small. We KNOW that the jump drive takes up space and/or reduces maneuverability, because if it didn't, Confed would have put jump drives on all their fighters. But the Excalibur was the first, and a pretty big fighter at that. But just IMO, of course.

and also, im a big fan of the 'grey zone' concept and your idea that in p0 fighters _arent_ jump capable

Since I came up with the Gray Zone, it's grown on me to the point I'm probably deluding myself to think the Origin guys had it in mind as well, but I do think so; and I think that they deluded themselves to think that players would assume that pirates and kats and retros were coming out of hidden jump points. I didn't even think such thing when I first played it, and most players probably never contemplated such a thing; but I think that's the idea the Origin guys intended to convery, and failed.

[Zool]

Well, in some other thread, sometime ago, I did say that having the Drayman CVL, if nothing else, would help explain the presence of Talons in systems without bases; and suggested that wherever there are talons, except in the case of local militias, I'd put a CVL nearby. I'd also change the AI so that rather than fighting to their deaths, pirates would give up and run back to mama CVL if/when they find you to tough a nut to crack.

Makes sense to me. Sounds more like a pirate should behave.

The Sparrowhawk could be an enhanced/modified Talon capable of mounting a jump drive. Retros would just have regular Talons & would be restricted to local systems - unless a passing Drayman CVL gives them a ride

Another great idea from z30.

Well, personally I see no reason why Talons need or should have jump drives given the arguments here. As long as there is at least one pirate ship that can chase you through jump points then that's ok with me.

[Sunfire]

in OP, there is no mention at all of carriers. none.

Not sure what you mean; there's plenty of bar rumors mentioning carriers that were lost, like the Winterrowd.

sorry.. .was more thinking about pirate, retro and milita carriers... but this got me thinking, so i went back over the rumors... turns out confed lost 2 carriers TCS Winterrowd and TCS Valiant and the next closest mention was the 6th fleet around midgard... lol so technically... you got me... ouch! that toaster fork hurts!

All true, but there's also no mention of there NOT being retro carriers or pirate Draymans.

you say po-tay-to i say po-tah-to
i do agree that it makes very good sense for them to have capships and support... and another reason why we really wouldnt see them in game that much... theyre far too valuable to the efforts of retros and pirates to even risk harm... but again.... it would be nice if this were mentioned somewhere... anywhere...

What I'm trying to make out was the idea, the intent, in Origin's people,

good point... and makes me think of an idea that has been slowly forming in the recesses of my mind... namely, the game seems to represent a very compressed distillation of complex events.... you ONLY see fixers in bars (sure theres ppl in the back and stuff... but never anyone just hanging out up front).. and theyre ONLY plot related... bartenders instantly give you the goods on rumors... you almost always see some sort of ships at a nav point... the systems have a base and planet... but no moons, stars ect. some limitations are tech limited and others gameplay limited... and again, i think your grey zone is a great way to unzip the universe so to speak. (lol and put some of those pretty moons around oxford will ya? )

furthermore, because (relatively) small jump drives are on the market, i see no reason why pirates and retros would not seek to find a way to mount them on talons...

Okay, this is the million dollar question, indeed. I think they wouldn't be able to fit one, and if they could, it might take too much equipment space, given that the ship is so small. We KNOW that the jump drive takes up space and/or reduces maneuverability, because if it didn't, Confed would have put jump drives on all their fighters. But the Excalibur was the first, and a pretty big fighter at that. But just IMO, of course.

ok... heres a thought about that... confed are not pirates, retros, milita, or privateers. technically they can use an extra shiptype onboard a carrier that is stand alone jump capable, just for flexability in missions, but they dont _need_ jump capable fighters to survive. everyone else in the sector needs them because they dont usually have a mission coming down from command, logistics, and carriers at their disposal... the feds can then save man hours, money and space on the fighters that are on the carriers... so sure... JD's arent free... but they arent also mission critical for confed. and theres actually alot of incentive for confed NOT to have them...
furthermore... strapping myself in the boots of a pirate, if i had a talon, and the JD wouldnt fit inside, id be welding it on somewhere... anywhere... i need flexability and autonomy to survive in gemini... i dont have a mommy to go home to... (besides... its not like im going to follow the regs on mounting equipment.... im a pirate! ar!)
i mean... they are pretty stupid in the game and i think youre spot on with how they SHOULD behave when attacking... lol but dont give them brains on one hand, then take them away on the other...

[chuck_starchaser]

Well, my argument has nothing to do with brains, really; it's whether it's possible to fit a JD in a Talon or not. You seem to allude to the cost of JD's as being a factor on Confed's descision not to put them in fighters. I think that could not possibly be a factor. A strike carrier costs over 73 BILLION to build, in 2668. A Wildcat fighter costs 50 million credits. If by putting JD's on all Confed fighters they could save just one carrier, they'd be putting away 72 billion in the bank. I think there's one clear problem with JD's, and that's the equipment space they take and mass they add to the ship.
So, how about a compromise?:
Let's make the Talon purchaseable at pirate bases, and give it a very limited equipment volume, such that you could fit...

• JD + Engine 1 + Shield 1, or
• JD + Engine 2 but no shield, or
• Engine 2 + Shield 2 but no JD

When players buy it out of curiosity, they will understand: Make it jump capable but otherwise useless, or make it useful but better make arrangements for transportation

PS.: I don't think you can attach a jump drive on the outside of a ship. The jump drive's canonical "theory" is that it produces a sudden flood of "antigravitons", whatever that is, and there's a containment field, I was just reading in Action Stations, that keeps the antigravitons within the outer boundaries of the ship. The antigravitons are attracted to jump points, and they pull the ship with them. I think the jump drive has to be well inside the ship, for it to work.

[Sunfire]

If by putting JD's on all Confed fighters they could save just one [strike]carrier, they'd be putting away 72 billion in the bank.

well... no... not really... because for that 72 billion, you get a moble space station capable of deep space strikes. if you have all those fighters, where are you going to put the crew? how are you going to re-fuel in battle? where do you get the logistical support from? where do you make repairs? and how do you take them anywhere NEAR where they are needed? its the same reasoning behind aircraft carriers... theres alot more to any military force than its guns.

So, how about a compromise?:
Let's make the Talon purchaseable at pirate bases, and give it a very limited equipment volume, such that you could fit...

• JD + Engine 1 + Shield 1, or
• JD + Engine 2 but no shield, or
• Engine 2 + Shield 2 but no JD

When players buy it out of curiosity, they will understand: Make it jump capable but otherwise useless, or make it useful but better make arrangements for transportation

yes yes yes!!! oh please oh please oh pleeeeeeaaaaasseee

PS.: I don't think you can attach a jump drive on the outside of a ship. The jump drive's canonical "theory" is that it produces a sudden flood of "antigravitons", whatever that is, and there's a containment field, I was just reading in Action Stations, that keeps the antigravitons within the outer boundaries of the ship. The antigravitons are attracted to jump points, and they pull the ship with them. I think the jump drive has to be well inside the ship, for it to work.

well... ill counter your magic elemental, with a freezing ice blast
the antigraviton field must be deployed by a computer no? and if its a component of being attached to the materiel, it is, its welded...


EDIT: crap... i hope youre not cold immune....

EDIT2: oh wait... you're canadian... OH NOOOOOOO

[chuck_starchaser]

If by putting JD's on all Confed fighters they could save just one [strike]carrier, they'd be putting away 72 billion in the bank.

well... no... not really... because for that 72 billion, you get a moble space station capable of deep space strikes. if you have all those fighters, where are you going to put the crew? how are you going to re-fuel in battle? where do you get the logistical support from? where do you make repairs? and how do you take them anywhere NEAR where they are needed? its the same reasoning behind aircraft carriers... theres alot more to any military force than its guns.

Very true, and I was precisely thinking along those lines, and that's why I didn't say "save all carriers", but just one. Namely, if you could fit JD's in all fighters, there'd be some missions, here and there, that could be done without the benefit of a carrier, so that instead of 50 carriers across the whole fronteer you might be able to accomplish the same with 49.

So, how about a compromise?:
Let's make the Talon purchaseable at pirate bases, and give it a very limited equipment volume, such that you could fit...

• JD + Engine 1 + Shield 1, or
• JD + Engine 2 but no shield, or
• Engine 2 + Shield 2 but no JD

When players buy it out of curiosity, they will understand: Make it jump capable but otherwise useless, or make it useful but better make arrangements for transportation

yes yes yes!!! oh please oh please oh pleeeeeeaaaaasseee

LOL. Never though Talons would be such a hit...

PS.: I don't think you can attach a jump drive on the outside of a ship. The jump drive's canonical "theory" is that it produces a sudden flood of "antigravitons", whatever that is, and there's a containment field, I was just reading in Action Stations, that keeps the antigravitons within the outer boundaries of the ship. The antigravitons are attracted to jump points, and they pull the ship with them. I think the jump drive has to be well inside the ship, for it to work.

well... ill counter your magic elemental, with a freezing ice blast
the antigraviton field must be deployed by a computer no?

Maybe. There's no canonical references to a computer being employed in jump drives, but then again, there's no mention of the contrary, either.

and if its a component of being attached to the materiel, it is, its welded...

I don't get you, but I get the inkling that you're thinking that the antigravitons are controllable. What I remember reading was actually the opposite: of them being kind of unruly. When, what's her name, accidentally discovered the jump drive, was when she was studying antigraviton drift, but her antigraviton generator spit out a big burst of them in the vecinity of a jump point, and buggers dragged her ship through the jump point. Well, of course none of it makes any sense whatsoever, but in addition we have a contradiction: The antigravitons supposedly permeate the ship and need to be contained by a special field, but on the other hand they drag the ship... Don't ask me, but yeah, they have to be produced inside the ship, and they spread through it. Not enough for them to pull the jump drive and the jump drive being welded, I don't think; I think the idea is more like they pulled every atom of the ship at once, and not through physical space but rather OUT of physical space.

EDIT: crap... i hope youre not cold immune....

EDIT2: oh wait... you're canadian... OH NOOOOOOO

Oh yes, I live in an igloo

[Sunfire]

Very true, and I was precisely thinking along those lines, and that's why I didn't say "save all carriers", but just one. Namely, if you could fit JD's in all fighters, there'd be some missions, here and there, that could be done without the benefit of a carrier, so that instead of 50 carriers across the whole fronteer you might be able to accomplish the same with 49.

... and with the money you save, you could probably put it in a fighter thats pretty stout and cutting edge so you dont have to sacrifice anything for the space used, what with being far away from the carrier and such... and with standardization on only one fighter, itd be easier to maintain... hmm... how bout the excalibur?

So, how about a compromise?:
Let's make the Talon purchaseable at pirate bases, and give it a very limited equipment volume, such that you could fit...

• JD + Engine 1 + Shield 1, or
• JD + Engine 2 but no shield, or
• Engine 2 + Shield 2 but no JD

When players buy it out of curiosity, they will understand: Make it jump capable but otherwise useless, or make it useful but better make arrangements for transportation

yes yes yes!!! oh please oh please oh pleeeeeeaaaaasseee

LOL. Never though Talons would be such a hit...

hehe... gimme gimme!!

well.. not that i really want to fly the stupid thing... but this soloution to the (basically my) problem, is very elegant... everything is suddenly Plausible you can have your pirate talons not following you intersystem, (oh.. there must be a carrier around hmmm... maybe ill go looking for it) and you can have talons way out in BfE... (oh.. obviously they have jump drives) you can preserve the OP feel and have things make sense... weaker talons for scouting... stouter talons for pillaging...

I don't get you, but I get the inkling that you're thinking that the antigravitons are controllable.

im sure you get this, but my point was, this whole explanation for jump drives is completely bogus... and when it comes to magitech, well... anything goes....

oh.. and i meant that the antigravitons would behave kind of like electrons (they are anti-gravitons implying charge) and all matter that was connected molecularly would be 'charged' with these antigravs... so, welding it to the frame takes care of this....

does what this man just said make any sense to you? if so... Origin needs YOU!
Job description:
to come up with other nonsenscial things and string them together haphazardly in a crude faxcimle of sentences in order to explain phisically impossible things... because hey... if it makes some kind of sense to you... we need some of what youre smoking....

EDIT: crap... i hope youre not cold immune....

EDIT2: oh wait... you're canadian... OH NOOOOOOO

Oh yes, I live in an igloo

that means he's cold ABSORB!!! aaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhh!!!!

[Dilloh]

I think it was either Mamiya Otaru or Hellcat, probably the latter, that gave Talons the ability to chase you across systems, but that's an error, canon-wise. Not saying that canon should be resepected in PU, just pointing out. Certainly they shouldn't in PrivRemake if they do. And to me it's more than a matter of canon; also of fun: It was fun to run drugs by avoiding militias when possible, just gunning for the jump points; --at least for me.

I see no problem in both solutions. PO had nothing chasing you through JPs. Actually, the only things you ever saw jumping were Draymans, Menesch and the Steltek scout. The Drone "just appeared".

lol... with some of my ex's.... this would be a VERY handy feature... especially if its on a point scale.... you could, with one glance, determine if the relationship is worth working on, or if it is indeed doomed... OR... you would know which days to stay away/bring home flowers and how much she _really_ likes you Very Happy it would be even handier if it included other factions... like parents...

I'd mod it long enough to free endorphines in her brain by hitting any key, so if she asked for flowers, she'd forget about it instantly.

But Privateer/RF is contemporary with WC3, and at this time we see a new technological wave of innovation and miniaturization in jump drives. Bombers and heavy fighters with jump drives begin to appear from 2665 through 2668, and in 2669 the Confeds come up with the first jump capable fighter, the Excalibur. Note that the type of jump drives these new ships have is different from capship jump drives, and from civilian jump drives: They consume afterburner fuel.

If WC Armada also is a canonity source, you have again no fighter/bomber capable of jumping... and armada plays shortly after P/RF

If that's still there, it should be removed, IMO.

I don't think it'd be a great loss if Talons stayed where they are - there are plenty of other ships still jumping around. But we'd have to rework spawning points then. We could also have a compromise of giving Talons e.g. max 3 jumps.

Okay, this is the million dollar question, indeed. I think they wouldn't be able to fit one, and if they could, it might take too much equipment space, given that the ship is so small. We KNOW that the jump drive takes up space and/or reduces maneuverability, because if it didn't, Confed would have put jump drives on all their fighters. But the Excalibur was the first, and a pretty big fighter at that. But just IMO, of course.

OP required universal jump drive mount so that the game made sense. Imagine you couldn't mount a JD onto an Orion - it'd be worthless. The JD was too cheap - only military fighters which have a strategic importance should have one. Talons? Maybe pirate talons in order to go raiding, maybe Retro talons to play missionary, but not militia talons - they need to stay where they are.

Since I came up with the Gray Zone, it's grown on me to the point I'm probably deluding myself to think the Origin guys had it in mind as well, but I do think so; and I think that they deluded themselves to think that players would assume that pirates and kats and retros were coming out of hidden jump points. I didn't even think such thing when I first played it, and most players probably never contemplated such a thing; but I think that's the idea the Origin guys intended to convery, and failed.

Okay - anybody got the email-adress of Chris Roberts?

lol and put some of those pretty moons around oxford will ya?

Hehe... ever thought about a moon which was thought to be uninhabited, but in truth infected by a small pirate group far below the surface? Let's say, in one of the systems around ND?

Let's make the Talon purchaseable at pirate bases, and give it a very limited equipment volume, such that you could fit...

* JD + Engine 1 + Shield 1, or
* JD + Engine 2 but no shield, or
* Engine 2 + Shield 2 but no JD

When players buy it out of curiosity, they will understand: Make it jump capable but otherwise useless, or make it useful but better make arrangements for transportation

...ending up with in-system-pirates as well as pirates goind rading. Nice idea. Zool?

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

I'm going to kill my self one day.

Sure go ahead with the abandoning of the JD' with talons. I usally don't use them.

HANG ON... Yes i do. I did the Cross missions in a talon.

[Sunfire]

I'd mod it long enough to free endorphines in her brain by hitting any key, so if she asked for flowers, she'd forget about it instantly.

hrms.... i think that a massive endorphin rush by pressing any key would be QUITE handy... (yet another scene in the matrix comes to mind) your faction status should skyrocket...

If WC Armada also is a canonity source, you have again no fighter/bomber capable of jumping... and armada plays shortly after P/RF

well... no. because unless youre prepared to tell me that in armada there are 50 planets per system...then... false.... _all_ ships are jump capable.. (which would make sense with a deep strike force) the interesting thing about armada is, the fighters have complete autonomy (can change systems as many times as they want without landing, but they can only go thru one system per turn) also, if you play a fighter in a battle one turn, you win, but your fighter is hanging on by a thread, by the battle in the next turn, your ship is fully repaired and stocked full of AB fuel and missles.
armada is really just chess in space... (chess pieces dont get 'damaged' in battle)

Talons? Maybe pirate talons in order to go raiding, maybe Retro talons to play missionary, but not militia talons - they need to stay where they are.

and non JD talons would be stronger to help with law enforcement

Hehe... ever thought about a moon which was thought to be uninhabited, but in truth infected by a small pirate group far below the surface? Let's say, in one of the systems around ND?

nice.... mob moons....

[Dilloh]

well... no. because unless youre prepared to tell me that in armada there are 50 planets per system...then... false.... _all_ ships are jump capable.. (which would make sense with a deep strike force) the interesting thing about armada is, the fighters have complete autonomy (can change systems as many times as they want without landing, but they can only go thru one system per turn) also, if you play a fighter in a battle one turn, you win, but your fighter is hanging on by a thread, by the battle in the next turn, your ship is fully repaired and stocked full of AB fuel and missles.
armada is really just chess in space... (chess pieces dont get 'damaged' in battle)

Well okay... it was a very long time ago when I played it the last time, and I only played it once. I'm sorry.

[chuck_starchaser]

I don't get you, but I get the inkling that you're thinking that the antigravitons are controllable.

im sure you get this, but my point was, this whole explanation for jump drives is completely bogus... and when it comes to magitech, well... anything goes....

Indeed. Startrek's pseudoscience is at least meaningless, thanks to their team of science advisors; but Origin never hired science advisors, so their pseudoscience has meaning, but the meaning makes no sense.
I profoundly disagree that anything goes, though; I'd say the opposite: magitech is a nest of radioactive vipers; you just don't want to go near it. The kind of thing you just whistle and look the other way. I mean, take "tractor beams", for instance. I'd love to get rid of them, but it wouldn't be Privateer without them. What else could you do? Try to fix them? Like make them very weak and based on some kind of standing wave suction? Make their strength diminish with the square of the distance? Whatever you do, however, you'd be calling attention to them, which causes people to think and ask questions. So there's nothing one can do, really; just whistle, look away, and don't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

oh.. and i meant that the antigravitons would behave kind of like electrons (they are anti-gravitons implying charge) and all matter that was connected molecularly would be 'charged' with these antigravs... so, welding it to the frame takes care of this....

The guys at Origin probably didn't know that "anti-" implies charge, though. Like most people, they probably thought that antiparicles are some sort of Yin-Yang or hypernatural dicotomy.
Perfect example of what I was just talking about: Magitech is a sore thumb that can't be fixed, and any attempt at treatment makes it worse...
As in my argument with Shissui a month ago or so, I'd advocate staying close to what we know. Shissui was proposing a minicarrier with the escorts attached on the outside, but we don't know what controls the extent of the jump drive's field, or how it is controlled; and we do know that we never see escorts on the outside of a carrier in WC, so the safest route is to stick to escorts being carried inside. Same here: We never see JD's bolted to the outside of ships, so I wouldn't go that way for any amount of money.
In any case, the question was about them fitting at all in Talons. To me, talons have no space for anything. Not even cargo. But let's leave it to the compromise discussed earlier, shall we?

OT:
Where do pirates take the loot they collect? It would take thousands of talon trips to clear the cargo of a Drayman...
I say they always have a Drayman CVL nearby; maybe in passive radar mode and with its engines off ...
/OT

[Zool]

Let's make the Talon purchaseable at pirate bases, and give it a very limited equipment volume, such that you could fit...

JD + Engine 1 + Shield 1, or

JD + Engine 2 but no shield, or

Engine 2 + Shield 2 but no JD

............ending up with in-system-pirates as well as pirates goind rading. Nice idea. Zool?

Interesting idea. Which config for AI ships??? I guess you'd need the first one or you're gonna end up with the spawning system for them filled up with these ships. Unless you plan on having spawn points everywhere. It's definitely got some good possibilities.

PS.: I don't think you can attach a jump drive on the outside of a ship. The jump drive's canonical "theory" is that it produces a sudden flood of "antigravitons", whatever that is, and there's a containment field, I was just reading in Action Stations, that keeps the antigravitons within the outer boundaries of the ship. The antigravitons are attracted to jump points, and they pull the ship with them. I think the jump drive has to be well inside the ship, for it to work.

Couldn't have said it better myself......had I thought of it

We could also have a compromise of giving Talons e.g. max 3 jumps.

Yes.......A more practical answer.

[Dilloh]

Where do pirates take the loot they collect? It would take thousands of talon trips to clear the cargo of a Drayman...
I say they always have a Drayman CVL nearby; maybe in passive radar mode and with its engines off ...

I'd not say that pirates go out with the purpose of catching a Drayman. Maybe they're out on doing something else, like kicking a militia patrol's butt, when they encounter a Drayman on their return. So they decide to shoot it and take as much as they can carry (which is a common behavior for criminals - if you robbed a bank, would you come up with a truck to ensure you get every single dollar?).

Interesting idea. Which config for AI ships??? I guess you'd need the first one or you're gonna end up with the spawning system for them filled up with these ships. Unless you plan on having spawn points everywhere. It's definitely got some good possibilities

PU is perfect to test if we ended up with infected systems. So I suggest we no longer discuss but just try it for canonHUDs2.0. Please add another type of Talon to units.csv, let's call it TalonIS (in system). No JD, but slightly better armament. For test purposes it is okay if we don't lower interTalons, but raise intraTalons. Then we'll look out for the spawning points and add additional ones in all system having pirate bases, with about 1/2 of the standard spawning rate. Agreed?

[chuck_starchaser]

Where do pirates take the loot they collect? It would take thousands of talon trips to clear the cargo of a Drayman...
I say they always have a Drayman CVL nearby; maybe in passive radar mode and with its engines off ...

I'd not say that pirates go out with the purpose of catching a Drayman. Maybe they're out on doing something else, like kicking a militia patrol's butt, when they encounter a Drayman on their return. So they decide to shoot it and take as much as they can carry (which is a common behavior for criminals - if you robbed a bank, would you come up with a truck to ensure you get every single dollar?).

Taking cargo is a pirate's living. They are not interested in kicking militia butt except for the sake of survival. Pirates would run away from militias if they could, I would imagine. And for myself, the only reason I'm not a bank robber is that I don't have a truck.
Actually, spiritplumber had merchant AI that if you attacked them, they fought back, but as soon as you got through the shield and started doing armor damage they'd run away leaving a trail of cargo items behind. Is this feature in PU? If so, pirates having only Talons makes a bit more sense. A bit of cargo may be all the pirates need and can carry, so they'd presumably leave the merchant alone. Without this feature, I'd say more reasons to have pirates have minicarriers.

[Sunfire]

Indeed. Startrek's pseudoscience is at least meaningless, thanks to their team of science advisors; but Origin never hired science advisors, so their pseudoscience has meaning, but the meaning makes no sense.

LOL how true...

I profoundly disagree that anything goes, though; I'd say the opposite: magitech is a nest of radioactive vipers; you just don't want to go near it. The kind of thing you just whistle and look the other way. I mean, take "tractor beams", for instance. I'd love to get rid of them, but it wouldn't be Privateer without them. What else could you do? Try to fix them? Like make them very weak and based on some kind of standing wave suction? Make their strength diminish with the square of the distance? Whatever you do, however, you'd be calling attention to them, which causes people to think and ask questions. So there's nothing one can do, really; just whistle, look away, and don't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

lol... i agree wholeheartedly... my point with the magitech was that as far as the developers were concerned, anything went...

We never see JD's bolted to the outside of ships, so I wouldn't go that way for any amount of money.

as we never see mini carriers

In any case, the question was about them fitting at all in Talons. To me, talons have no space for anything. Not even cargo. But let's leave it to the compromise discussed earlier, shall we?

talons DO have some space... every once in awhile they drop some contraband in OP (those must have carrier support )

and definately... your compromise is a perfect soloution as far as im concerned

Actually, spiritplumber had merchant AI that if you attacked them, they fought back, but as soon as you got through the shield and started doing armor damage they'd run away leaving a trail of cargo items behind. Is this feature in PU? If so, pirates having only Talons makes a bit more sense. A bit of cargo may be all the pirates need and can carry, so they'd presumably leave the merchant alone. Without this feature, I'd say more reasons to have pirates have minicarriers.

ooo!!! i like that... 'hey dont trash my ship man' 'dump your cargo before you blow will ya?'

[chuck_starchaser]

That was such a good feature! Oh man; realistic, making perfect sense, and hilarious at the same time. If PU doesn't have it, it's got to try it.

[Dilloh]

Actually, spiritplumber had merchant AI that if you attacked them, they fought back, but as soon as you got through the shield and started doing armor damage they'd run away leaving a trail of cargo items behind. Is this feature in PU?

It is, though it needs rework, that means pirate AI needs rework. When the merchants drop some of their (infinite) cargos, the pirates still shoot at the merchant, whereas the merchant isn't impressed by that at all and keeps on dumping. Pirates should have tractoring cargo as their primary aim, and as soon as their belly is full, the AI should tell them to head to the next base to sell/unload.

A bit of cargo may be all the pirates need and can carry, so they'd presumably leave the merchant alone. Without this feature, I'd say more reasons to have pirates have minicarriers

As I mentioned, the first trick would be to make the pirates look out for cargo with priority. It would make the gameflow better, even if you had situations where they are still getting shot but still trying to tractor in stuff. Minicarriers would than serve as the unload bases.

as we never see mini carriers

Suggestion: Make pirate minicarriers simply dockable, so that the Talons can unload their cargo. So you don't need a carrier at all, a modified Galaxy or Drayman would do the job.

That was such a good feature! Oh man; realistic, making perfect sense, and hilarious at the same time.

Also a good way to make money... I started a new game and encountered a Drayman which barely survived a retro attack. Got myself a tractor beam and picked up the 4 units of advanced fuels every about 20 seconds. So I had 100 units of free fuel to sell per wave, making 50000 credits. The fortune ceased when a pirate wing finished it off.

[Zool]

PU is perfect to test if we ended up with infected systems. So I suggest we no longer discuss but just try it for canonHUDs2.0. Please add another type of Talon to units.csv, let's call it TalonIS (in system). No JD, but slightly better armament. For test purposes it is okay if we don't lower interTalons, but raise intraTalons. Then we'll look out for the spawning points and add additional ones in all system having pirate bases, with about 1/2 of the standard spawning rate. Agreed?

Sounds good to me....do it!

Actually, spiritplumber had merchant AI that if you attacked them, they fought back, but as soon as you got through the shield and started doing armor damage they'd run away leaving a trail of cargo items behind. Is this feature in PU?

I have actually seen this happen once, a damaged merchant Galaxy was trying to get away from me and was spitting out a trail of cargo.

Ok I have been reading it and still have no idea......what is Magitech??

Pirates should have tractoring cargo as their primary aim, and as soon as their belly is full, the AI should tell them to head to the next base to sell/unload................As I mentioned, the first trick would be to make the pirates look out for cargo with priority. It would make the gameflow better, even if you had situations where they are still getting shot but still trying to tractor in stuff. Minicarriers would than serve as the unload bases.

This is a good idea but when the pirates were attacked they would need to stop salvaging and defend themselves or run away, otherwise they're going to end up sitting ducks...er...sitting Talons.
If you've spent any time in XXN1927 you will see pirates a-plenty waving tractorbeams about.....lol....makes them easier to shoot.

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

You would have program the pirates to stop shooting when cargo appears. and dissapear to the carrier.

But how do smugglers work? You would need a strong, fast ship capable of out running Militia.

[z30]

You would have program the pirates to stop shooting when cargo appears. and dissapear to the carrier.

But how do smugglers work? You would need a strong, fast ship capable of out running Militia.

It just has to blend in as a merchanter but be faster, have stronger shields & more weaponry. Think Millenium Falcon which is just a souped up Corellian freighter.

[Sunfire]

I have actually seen this happen once, a damaged merchant Galaxy was trying to get away from me and was spitting out a trail of cargo.

dude... this whole concept is just hilarious to me... awesome...

Ok I have been reading it and still have no idea......what is Magitech??

magitech is just a term for an in cannon technology that relies on 'magic' to work... the explanations are shoddy at best... think: 'and then a miracle happens'

Suggestion: Make pirate minicarriers simply dockable, so that the Talons can unload their cargo. So you don't need a carrier at all, a modified Galaxy or Drayman would do the job.

i am in no way suggesting a movement away from the compromise... i still think the carrier/JD idea is a great one... but it would make sense for speed of collecting cargo if you saw this in game... they have several 'quick dock' ports for unloading cargo... they gotta be fast... never know when milita would show up, rather than intern the whole ship...

[chuck_starchaser]

You would have program the pirates to stop shooting when cargo appears. and dissapear to the carrier.

But how do smugglers work? You would need a strong, fast ship capable of out running Militia.

It just has to blend in as a merchanter but be faster, have stronger shields & more weaponry. Think Millenium Falcon which is just a souped up Corellian freighter.

Maybe that could be a good use for the Cutlass; have smuggling pirates flying Cutlasses at huge speed, silent mode. Just once in a while

[Sunfire]

Maybe that could be a good use for the Cutlass; have smuggling pirates flying Cutlasses at huge speed, silent mode. Just once in a while

Nice! like that urban legend of the drug running lambroghini: completely blacked out car, ran only at night and the driver used night vision... got caught by authoritys becuase he kept tripping the radar gun at 200 mph, and the cop never saw anything...

[Dilloh]

It just has to blend in as a merchanter but be faster, have stronger shields & more weaponry. Think Millenium Falcon which is just a souped up Corellian freighter.

It's hard to refer to corellians - their balance shows no straight canonity according to different sources. While in the movie the MF barely survives the attack of a handful TIEs, there are several video games which present it either as a virtually defended merchant, or as a turreted godship. However, I don't think the pirates would use special ships for different purposes. They need a single ship which ultimatively fills the gap between smuggling and looting.