Gemini Gold vs. Privateer Remake

kemstone · Post by **kemstone** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:31 pm

I just got Gemini Gold and while there were many things I liked about it I still think Privateer Remake, with all of its improvements to the original version, is going to ultimately be better. (I'm not a total purist--if I want to play the original game it can be emulated with DOS-Box)

The only thing is that Gemini Gold currently LOOKS better than the remake (although the lack of HUD display and different artwork for different systems are serious deficiencies).

I am wondering whether any of the new improvements for Gemini Gold will find their way into the remake. I am specifically referring to the following:
1- newly rendered bases and planetary surfaces (like clouds on planets)
2- awesome new explosions effects
3- lips moving in the communications display
4- animated as opposed to static jump points

I'm not sure how much collaboration goes on between the two projects but if the programming for this stuff is already written would it not be fairly easy to make a patch for Remake 1.2 that will implement these new changes? Does anybody know if something like this is in the works?

Dilloh · Post by **Dilloh** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:38 am

I always wondered why GG gets all the cosmetical stuff and PR is somehow left behind. The devs of both parts seem to coop or at least not to be rivals. The games are open source, so there is no reason, even no chance to keep content away from each other. Another reason: PR shall go multiplayer some day and that is the current focus for the PR devs. Anyway, somebody will be experimenting with implementing GG stuff sooner or later, and it will come.

OnyxPaladin · Post by **OnyxPaladin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:23 am

MamiyaOtaru wrote:It's pretty hard to judge between the two stability wise since they are 99% the same. Gold takes PR and deletes some lines in the file that controls what you can buy and has a few different graphics, but the engine is exactly the same.

The people who work on PR also work on the engine itself, so the data and code might be a tiny bit better coordinated.

Specific differences:
*PR has autofiring turrets, GG does not
*in PR some extra ships can be unlocked as campaigns progress, not so in GG
*GG is using different map graphics
*PR has autotrackers, GG does not. They will be removed from PR after the rebalancing is done, though (ships have to be hittable without them)
*PR has an extra campaign, GG does not (I don't know for sure, but it would be a bit against GG's raison d'etre to have it)
*GG doesn't let you disable the cockpit sprite.
*GG is limited to 800x600 resolution.
*GG has different exit and pause sprites.
*PR's development is open. Players may not care, but those who like to follow along and help out might.

Can't really think of anything else. At the moment the divergence is slight enough that you should choose based on your personal preferences, not on any technical grounds.

from this thread

Apparently Gemini Golds development is closed, meaning followers are not able to make suggestions and possibly that there is no real communication between the devs of pr ans GG. Hopefully i am about the latter as PR could use the facelift GG has gotten.

GMacLir · Post by **GMacLir** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:14 pm

Two things would effectively stop me for playing PR should they happen in versions after 1.2.

The first being 'autotracking' and its possible removal, I'm a very poor pilot in dogfights so even that little bit of help means a great deal. Not only that, but turrent autotracking and auto-fire are a major deal, because without them I'm a sitting duck. That's never fun in a game...

The second thing that would stop me from playing is being locked into a cockpit viewpoint. If I can't be surrounded by space then the game just isn't correct for me. It's like when I drive an automobile, some vehicles have long frontends where a lot is visible to the driver, but I've always driven according to the road ahead and have ignored the 'front' of my vehicle. The same would apply should I fly, I would pay attention to where the land is located in comparison to where I'm flying to. Yes, I know that I would have gauges, etc. that would tell/help me to know where I am, but I also know that relying solely on those is just asking to crash the plane. This is also the reason that I switch to the same 'no car' view in any racing games I play; if that view isn't available then I don't play the game. A true driver/pilot uses the vehicle as an extension of themselves, not a shell around them that's to be guided where needed.

Sorry that's a bit OT and not at the same time. I play PR because of how it is now, if GG sets that second limitation I've spoken about I'll never play it. So, cooperation to a degree I'll welcome, but all out merging I will not unless they side with PR-like settings/setups. The beauty of Open Source being that I can take an old version that stills plays the way I want and I can merge what I feel like from the newer versions.

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:47 pm

i agree with you to an extent.. though i like some of the gagues.. and like an imersed feeling.. but i prefer them in the transpearant displays, like i was talking about..

kemstone · Post by **kemstone** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:30 pm

They're getting rid of auto-tracking? Why would they do that? If some people feel it makes the game too easy can't they just NOT BUY IT? I could understand getting rid of it for a multi-player release (too much of an unfair advantage) but for the single-player releases they should at least keep it as an option for those who like it.

But as far as the GG cosmetics go--does anyone know if there's an easy enough way to bring some of those features to the remake myself? If it's just a matter of transferring the coding for explosions, asteroids, jump-points and ship textures over to PR, I'd happily do it. I just don't want to fuck up the game.

OnyxPaladin · Post by **OnyxPaladin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:49 pm

I guess i should have said just how old that quote really is. I'm fairly certain that PR and GG won't ever merge because of the differences in their philosophies. GG is a basically the same game with newer graphics etc. PR is open to changes to the game, like the new ships and the bonus campaigns.

PR 1.3 may not ever come to pass because as far as i know the devs are working mostly on WCU and WC multiplayer. As for autotracking there have been multiple threads arguing to keep it in the game, so if there is ever a 1.3 they would be making a mistake to get rid of the more popular features.

As for cockpits, it's doubtful they'll get rid of the on/off function for it as not every ship has a cockpit.

Also GMacLir, have you heard of vertigo? Alot of pilots would be dead if they didn't use their instruments. Though you are correct that a good pilot/driver uses the vehicle as an extension, but sometimes you need it to tell you what the hell it's doing.

Dilloh · Post by **Dilloh** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:14 am

As Onyx said, the quote is from 2005. GG is far beyond having a 800x600 res among other things. If something is taken out, it can be easily reimplemented, talking about the cloaking device (for those who don't know what I'm talking about - there was a cloaking device among with a kamekh available in PR1.1). I have browsed the GG forum, and it seems that they are currently looking for help to rework the graphics. And they've found the help, e.g. they have a new landing pad for oxford, a new commodity exchange. So someone should contact those guys and "hire" them for PR/PU. As Sligor is currently the graphics coordinator for PU, I'd suggest to give the contact issue to him.

Post by **klauss** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:23 pm

First, PR may never get GGs graphics, as data (as in graphics) may be released in a different license. And, AFAIK, they are released in a more restrictive licence (how restrictive I don't know).

Code changes, however, will get to PR if PR development is willing to make use of it (difficult to imagine why they wouldn't). I'm not really aware of PR's current development status, but I really think they should (and would) use GG's as a base since, right now, GG has tons of code and balance improvements over PR 1.2. GG's code improvements are still GPL, and can be freely used in PR. Porting those changes inside PR would be rather difficult, I think, so if I were them, I'd take GG and re-enable the extensions.

About autotracking, at some point I talked to Mamiya of a way to keep autotracking the way it should be (ie: not conflict with later WC games nor remove it, nor make it unbalacing): nerfing it to a much more reasonable functionality. I really believe autotracking shouldn't be more than a subtle aiming aid, and so I proposed a set of quality downgrades (tracking cone reductions, response times, etc...) that would both make sense and make it less unbalancing. Furthermore, it would still be of great use for those guys with less than perfect aim (or using a keyboard - who aims well with a keyboard?), worth its cost and not more (right now, autotracking is rather cheap for the functionality it adds). In fact, I'd consider the same nerfing for VS - more important than in PR, because in VS beams+autotracking is simply too unbalancing. He agreed, so I'd expect something like that in PR 1.3. Thing may have changed in the time passed, however, so this is nonbinding.

Ah... and GG's limitation to 800x600 was because some UI elements wouldn't look right at higher resolutions. But the next release will probably reenable higher resolutions (because those issues will be largely resolved).

In short... GG is advancing pretty much, I have to say. I too like PR's "extensive" philosophy better, but I have to admit GG is more mature in terms of spit&polish. I haven't had my hands on PR's latest development version, though, so take that assessment with a grain of salt.

Dilloh · Post by **Dilloh** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:06 pm

Okay klauss, so why isn't it "allowed" to use GG graphics in PR? Is it because nobody wants to do it or are there really licenses? If there are, so why does everyone talk about "open source"? I mean, browsing the GG forum, I read about hellcatv looking out for contributors, and he finds some, offering to credit them. Can he/you/them really restrict the release then? Or questioned else, can I contact the graphic contributors, ask them if I can use their graphics for a PR update, and use it if they allow?

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:27 pm

the 'liscense' for graphis, is usually written (in open source games) by the person who made the graphics, so they are still his property, just, letting this specific game use them.. so his work is not stolen.. open source code i understand, but graphics, its art, art should be signed, and shared, but still, the artist should be known, for how great, or how pathetic they were..

Draken Stark · Post by **Draken Stark** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:11 am

Neskiairti wrote:...the artist should be known, for how great, or how pathetic they were..

Soo true... and evil

lmao I've seen both sides of the coin before in other open sorce places.

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:29 pm

so have i.. I sorta 'work' on annother open source game, but, its been sitting there stagnating for a couple years now cause all our programmers burned out and i personally havnt had the time to learn to write java.. (yeah i know, java..) and im starting to shake my head..
but we have a few damn good graphics designers.. and a few horrid ones.. we kept teasing one of them, cause he could only make 'shoes' instead of ships.. >.> he got better, alot better actually, but his first 'submissions' had to be rejected.. and we couldnt beleive he dared submit them.

Post by **klauss** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:43 pm

Dilloh wrote:Or questioned else, can I contact the graphic contributors, ask them if I can use their graphics for a PR update, and use it if they allow?

Exactly what PR would have to do to get GG's art: ask the creator.
AFAIK, most of GG's art is on a more restrictive license, as in not free for grabs, but quite grabbable with the proper authorization.
Notice "most" - ie: not all of it.

Dilloh · Post by **Dilloh** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:29 am

Okay, that's everything I wanted to know so far, though it doesn't change anything but gives us an overview of what we are allowed to do and what not. Thx

Neskiairti · Post by **Neskiairti** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:59 pm

imma point some graphics artists this way.. atleast this game is being activly developed (right?)