Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Need help testing contributed art or code or having trouble getting your newest additions into game compatible format? Confused by changes to data formats? Reading through source and wondering what the developers were thinking when they wrote something? Need "how-to" style guidance for messing with VS internals? This is probably the right forum.
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klauss
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by klauss »

Well, you could include a "gravity scale" parameter and just compensate scale.

I mean, more realistic scales are in fact desired (ie, everything sol-like), but even with sol-like scales, you'll need the "gravity scale" parameter.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

Sol system from data/sectors/sol works great -the scale is realistic - the planet's velocity I got from the model also 90% correct. I only added gravity for sol and each planet from wiki
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

Something must be done with a view distance - if you fly away from sun to mercuty in solsystem it disappears... Where's the sun...
Disabled background to see planets....Planning to put real VS galaxy stars into background.

P.S. Looked at the VS galaxy...It's a bit ..flat.. Looks like optimized for 2d viewing...
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by klauss »

BEZ_BASHNI wrote:Disabled background to see planets....Planning to put real VS galaxy stars into background.
They're there already.
BEZ_BASHNI wrote:P.S. Looked at the VS galaxy...It's a bit ..flat.. Looks like optimized for 2d viewing...
Nope, the galaxy is rather flat.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

Reduce our galaxy to a few hundred key stars and I bet it will look rather flat... They do tend to look like a plate.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

Question came to mind with respect to physics oddities and more real flight. What I have encountered with turning on flying to different systems via SPEC, you have to select a system in your nav screen and you seem to "jump" there after a certain distance away from your current location's star. What is involved with setting up real inter-system flight?
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:Question came to mind with respect to physics oddities and more real flight. What I have encountered with turning on flying to different systems via SPEC, you have to select a system in your nav screen and you seem to "jump" there after a certain distance away from your current location's star. What is involved with setting up real inter-system flight?
  • A whole new coordinate system and flight rendering mode for inter-system space
  • a lot of art to populate that space with the required "interesting" objects,
  • a lot of programming to get the "interesting" objects look "interesting" (nebulae come to mind, among so many others),
  • and some way to make the trip possibly eventful (encounters or whatever else).
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:
  • A whole new coordinate system and flight rendering mode for inter-system space
  • a lot of art to populate that space with the required "interesting" objects,
  • a lot of programming to get the "interesting" objects look "interesting" (nebulae come to mind, among so many others),
  • and some way to make the trip possibly eventful (encounters or whatever else).
  • Ok, lots of work, but not impossible
  • It's intersteller space. Almost by definition it is empty and uninteresting.
  • Well, if the backgrounds are turned off to show the "real" stars this needs to happen anyway.
  • Again, empty space. Other than onboard events like wear and tear or random system failures not much is happening.
Just wondering... lots of stuff that needs work first!
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by pheonixstorm »

klauss wrote:
  • A whole new coordinate system and flight rendering mode for inter-system space
  • a lot of art to populate that space with the required "interesting" objects,
  • a lot of programming to get the "interesting" objects look "interesting" (nebulae come to mind, among so many others),
  • and some way to make the trip possibly eventful (encounters or whatever else).
For the events.. I think those can be added fairly easy via new python code. Some type of random encounter system with different encounter types and percentages based on the lawlessness of the system you are traveling through.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by klauss »

I guess I shouldn't mention that in UTCS canon those trips are supposed to take years.

I like the feature, but I don't think it plays out nicely in UTCS. VegaTrek and other modes, probably yes. UTCS, not likely.

About encounters and interesting things... well... if it isn't interesting or "fillable" (for modding purposes), it's not interesting as a game feature. So before going for the feature for the sake of the feature, try to find a way it would enhance gameplay.

In UTCS canon, those trips are made:
  • To go to unexplored systems not connected yet through (known) jump points
  • For military campaigns where jumping in isn't a viable option (hardened jumpoints - mines and stationary defenses would have to be developed).
And in any case, they take years or months.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

More of a random thought. "If we can see a star, why not fly there?" type thing. The current system works well enough for those games (vegatrek) that don't use wormholes/jump as the primary mode of inter-system travel, it just seems to me that traveling x light-minutes, light-years, what have you in any random direction and arriving at your selected destination is just wrong headed. You should need to be pointed in the right direction, and travel the right distance. I was wondering what was involved and now I know. With so much else that needs work I'll leave it to someone else to champion the cause as I'm happy with jumping and just think it would be nice to have it available. As to why a player would chose to do it that way, I have no idea.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

klauss wrote:
BEZ_BASHNI wrote:Disabled background to see planets....Planning to put real VS galaxy stars into background.
They're there already.

.
.[/quote]

Where there?
I can see the galaxy inside VegaMap only... the generated stars if i switch off background looks random...
Last edited by BEZ_BASHNI on Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

klauss wrote:Be careful, you can't set 100% realistic scales.

It was tried at sol, and it produces some sever precision artifacts, even with all the tricks VS employs to avoid them.

I think sol is at the limit, which is 1:10 scale.
Please, give me more idea about this issue and the nature of the limits...
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by pheonixstorm »

klauss wrote:In UTCS canon, those trips are made:
  • To go to unexplored systems not connected yet through (known) jump points
  • For military campaigns where jumping in isn't a viable option (hardened jumpoints - mines and stationary defenses would have to be developed).
And in any case, they take years or months.
And this part of cannon doesn't make sense.. if the trips are supposed to takes year at SPEC speeds then why do it? Either military SPEC drives are FTL or larger military ships can make micro jumps w/o use of the jump network. I think this was how the Area were trying to punch through human occupied space to punch out into the unexplored portions of the galaxy/universe (will have to reread the war section of the holy scroll).

So, as for a gameplay, if we allowed the player to make these kinda of trips it should really only take hours and be the most boring flight plan imaginable. That or allow for micro jumps drives to work outside the jump network. Point to a star and jump, check target distance and your position and jump.

I mention FTL SPEC as currently the hud shows SPEC speeds as .97ish c which is sub-light and doesn't hold well when you travel to a planet 90 something light minutes away in under 5 minutes.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

pheonixstorm wrote:I mention FTL SPEC as currently the hud shows SPEC speeds as .97ish c which is sub-light and doesn't hold well when you travel to a planet 90 something light minutes away in under 5 minutes.
Must be something new. I have seen 97C but not .97 C except briefly while speeding up or slowing down. (I personally got tired of waiting and upped the max multiplier to C and an insane max speed so regularly travel at 200C: When do the things to do while in space come on line?)

Anyway, SPEC drives of various speeds is being looked into, and should be developed. I also like the mini-jump idea.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:Anyway, SPEC drives of various speeds is being looked into, and should be developed. I also like the mini-jump idea.
The mini-jump idea makes even less sense. Jump points are a web, you can only jump at jump points, because that's where the space-whatever anomaly is or whatever. Gameplay-wise, jump points make a lot of sense, they create distance among systems, because if you can jump unrestrictedly then distance is a moot point, and the create interception points, to get from A to B you have to go through C. That's good for a game.

So no mini-jumps, adding them makes every system be at a jump's distance from wherever you are. Bad idea.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

How's this sound for a "mini-jump"? It will transport you a given distance in a pre determined direction i.e. 1.5ly at your present heading. Then you recharge and do it again. Very dangerous to try to drop inside a system though. With no way to scan the exit you could land in the middle of a planet or star!
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by log0 »

BEZ_BASHNI wrote:Please, give me more idea about this issue and the nature of the limits...
You can run an experiment. Get yourself to Pluto. It has an aphelion of 7,311,000,000 km. Your numeric precision(doubles for position) will be about one millimeter there. Try to move at slow speed or try to get close to a resting or slowly moving object.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

I flied to pluto ,jettisoned cargo ,flied around it - i see no problem there at this stage... The last digits in coordinates are lost -but the rest seems ok until we have the float resoulution up to 0.05 m.
But I understand the idea- if we want to simulate the huge system where from center to farest planet will be smth like 17 976 931 348 623 km we will loose resolution up to 1 meter.
I tried it just now to put station at (17976931348623,17976931348623,17976931348623) and myself nearby - I see the 1m jumps in movement- but still it's playable...
but do we really need to simulate a starsystem with 3.3 light years radius...
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by pheonixstorm »

I say NO! that sounds more like a star clusterrather than a star system. Whats the largest known size for a solar system?
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by BEZ_BASHNI »

Whats the largest known size for a solar system?
In wiki you cannot get the answer quick... There are relativly big system with 2 -3 stars in center and planets orbiting around...But not 3.3 Light years big...
The problem we dont know much about planets orbiting around well-known stars.Especially small, earth -size ones... It is a very small chance to detect them with current level of tecnique..
Concerning VS i think we dont have any limit now modelling realsize known star systems.

klauss wrote:Gameplay-wise, jump points make a lot of sense
Unfortunaly they kill any logic in what you see in game... With such a way organized spacetravell structures theres no chance for pirates , freelance ,smallscale spacetrade and all we love in elite..
The ones who play EVE know very well the gatecamps wich are allways on the borders. In the reality we will have not friendly races in space and gates /wormholes we will never get carribean pirates -style spacelife. It will be cold war style checkpoints on the gates with plenty heavy lazers aiming on the passing ship, export/import declarations,detailed cargoscan, paying export /import duty end everything else we are used to see . Because it is logical and peoples or other creatures ,living on planets dont want their planets to be destoyed or their economy ruined ,and they will do everything to protect their systems and their asses as a first priority. And if you have only few gates to your system , they will be protected to withstand the army with all resources you have... VS missions looks a bit stupid for me - how the ludittes or aera can appear deep inside unfriendly space? How they managed to pass 10 stargates? Why nobody killed them at the wormhole near the border? How the pirate can kill somebody and steal his cargo in the system-if theres only few fixed ways out he will be obviously trapped inside a system in 'realword's' logic. This lack of common sense killing the game...
The frreejump idea gives a chance to carribean-style pirate life to survive.
When you.and everybody else can jump to any system he has enough fuel -it is sort of freedom..The pirate can survive..The free trader can make his risky money...If it is too difficult to arrange the contoll over the space -the pirate will appear - but with a currenly supported VS fixed jump points it is too easy to build empires instead...
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by klauss »

The solution, out-of-range, well protected, or otherwise hidden pirate jump points.

Plus, the dynamic universe system has to better account for jump hardening, but first, jump points have to be hardened in the game. Even a few well-shielded stationary defense platforms would pay off.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by pheonixstorm »

Trying to control that many jump nodes drains a large portion of your resources, something which most stellar governments would not want to do in peace time unless it is a HIGHLY valuable system. It does make sense when you think about how large everything is and the fact that you have a limited number of ships to patrol an entire solar system. Its the lack of patrols that throws everything off.

Even if each system had its own militia force, fighting off a well equiped pirate force would get costly very fast. Take privateer for example. You could still be a pirate, you just had to watch out for the militia and confed patrols. Not difficult to avoid overall. Another example would be the jump points in the Battltech universe. Granted not much piracy, but you only had two usable jump points in and out of the system unless you were really crazy, then you could use a pirate point (risky). But, most pirate activities in BT wasn't against space targets but smash and grab planetary operations.

In any event, a system can not be locked down 100%, not realisticly anyway, to stop smuggling or piracy. Maybe for a military campaign which would have a large cap presence, but even then a smart pirate or enemy would just put a jump drive on a nuke or anti-matter bomb and send it through the gate on a timer. Boom, problem probably solved.

Another example, Babylon 5. Uses jump gate tech (for the most part) but it still has the issue of piracy. So, let me say this again. You can't be everywhere at once. No matter how well you patrol an area there is always a chance for piracy. If you don't witness the act of piracy then how do you know that any given ship is the pirate you are after?
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by travists »

Not unreasonable, but there is an awful lot of traffic passing through a jump point at any given time. Further not all ships entering a jump point are bound for a planet/base in that system. Is every ship passing through the bearing strait stopped and searched at each end? How about going around the cape of good hope? The Strait of Gibraltar? Also Several of the factions are theoretically part of the human confederation, as such there are likely to be trade laws forbidding such taxes and emplacements on internal jumps. Wile I agree that alternate modes of inter-system travel are warranted, I do not concur that every system should be treated as a sovereign entity at a state of war with all of its neighbors.

I also echo pheonix and klauss' comments.
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Re: Modify physics -get rid of viscosi -underwater model

Post by Hicks »

How about instead of having jump gates between systems we can have a single jump point in each system. You need to know the ID number/loctaion of the jump beacon, select it in a menu and a supercharged spec drive gets you there. You can only jump as far as your fuel will take you. Small ships do lots of small jumps to get somewhere, larger ships cn bypass a few sectors due to large fuel tanks.

Beacon locations can be obtained from the goverment? need to have high enough reputation to get into main sectors. Codes can be obtained from scanning enemy computers. Almost anyone has codes for the border sectors, low security, and raided often by pirates (jump in destroy some stuff, jump out).

It also means that you can have a miltiary base covering a few solar systems. The capital ships can jump to systems within a ceratin radius(few light years?) within a few minutes or less, depending on the supercharged spec engine installed.
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