turrets

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esgaroth
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turrets

Post by esgaroth »

As the phaser banks dont seem to work with the current engine, it would be a nice idea to switch the phasers of the large ships to turrets. However, I have no real clue how to do this. Is there anyone out there who has some information about turrets ?

Besides, still looking for a mac man who would be willing to create a batch download for mac....
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Why wouldn't they?

I don't remember any phaser-breaking changes. In fact, there were phaser-fixing ones.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

esgaroth wrote: it would be a nice idea to switch the phasers of the large ships to turrets. However, I have no real clue how to do this. Is there anyone out there who has some information about turrets ?
I believe turrets would be excellent for modeling the kind of weapons your mod uses, except that they currently lack some important features:

Direct Fire Control of Multiple Turrets. Currently you cannot fire all turrets at the target for as long as you hold down the fire key and no longer.

Turret Groups. Currently all turrets are commanded at once, regardless of the type of turret or weapons it carries. You can fire everything or nothing at all.

Rotation Limits. I don't think you can limit a turret to rotating/firing only 90º ahead or 120º to port, for examples.
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Re: turrets

Post by esgaroth »

Why wouldn't they?
A few months ago there was a feedback over there at wcjunction reporting that phaser banks dont work, and one of the devs (dont know anymore who, probably you ?) IIRC responded that they might not work under the current version.
Nevertheless, we had talked some time ago that turrets would probably be a better way to simulate star trek phasers (and yes, Deus, you´re right, direct fire control would be very nice). The "activate turrets" button would then be in our mod something like "all phasers fire at will" command...
However, i dont know very much about turrets, if someone could provide some examples (especially the directions and the angles) i could try them....
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

When I tested Vega Trek with SVN trunk, I remember phasers reset right after hitting the target, which made them useless. But I had fixed that.
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Re: turrets

Post by esgaroth »

When I tested Vega Trek with SVN trunk, I remember phasers reset right after hitting the target, which made them useless. But I had fixed that.
Well, I dont understand what you mean with "testing with svn trunk", but probably the problem was with the exe of the last package and the exe we use now in the repo is ok, I will have to try it.
Nevertheless, is there anyone out there with knowledge of turrets ?
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Re: turrets

Post by esgaroth »

BTW, wcjunction seems to be down again. I would like to re-do everything that was lost during my system crash, e.g. starting as different factions. If wcjuncion keeps being down, I might have to ask the same old questions again, that is how to edit the main menu to start as klingon etc.....
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

esgaroth wrote:BTW, wcjunction seems to be down again. I would like to re-do everything that was lost during my system crash, e.g. starting as different factions. If wcjuncion keeps being down, I might have to ask the same old questions again, that is how to edit the main menu to start as klingon etc.....
I've been trying to get access to the server for a while. I switched jobs and shredded the access tokens without making a backup first, it seems (I thought I had made one, but when I needed it, it wasn't there).

I've been trying to dig old backups, to no avail. Chuck is also having a hard time reaching them to get a password reset. If someone else has access and wants to share... ;)
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

esgaroth wrote: Nevertheless, is there anyone out there with knowledge of turrets ?
I think you are talking to (the only) them. I haven't dealt with turrets directly yet, but I've become fairly familiar with units.csv and VS' other data systems. And what I can't figure out from looking at the data/testing, Klauss can by looking at the code.

What questions do you have regarding turrets?
esgaroth wrote:(and yes, Deus, you´re right, direct fire control would be very nice).
What do you say Klauss, should I write this up as another feature request? I think it will have noticeable benefits for VS as well, especially with the new physics balance.
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
esgaroth wrote:(and yes, Deus, you´re right, direct fire control would be very nice).
What do you say Klauss, should I write this up as another feature request? I think it will have noticeable benefits for VS as well, especially with the new physics balance.
Yes, and it's popped up enough times to get the hint.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

Alright how does this ticket sound:

Revised Turret Control wrote:
This is a new control scheme for turrets with the intent of making control simpler and more direct for the player. It has two modes, default and automatic.

Turrets will have a direct fire command of that operates the same way as the gun and missile fire commands. When in default mode, all turrets will fire when this fire key is pressed or held down and halt firing when it is released. Turrets will train themselves on the ship's current target by default. If there is no target, they will return to their rest orientations.

When in automatic mode, turret's select hostile targets according to their own AI and then fire at will.

In either mode, the player can still enter manual control of any one of the turrets as he could before. When he does so the other turrets will continue operating according the current turret mode, and when he leaves his turret it too will go back to operating according to the current mode.

Altogether there will be no more than three key commands for controlling turrets-- Fire Turrets, Switch Turrets Mode and the preexisting "TurretControl" (switches between manual control of individual turrets). There will be no more key for explicitly assigning turrets a target since the two modes will handle this implicitly.
Good? If so, what milestone should this be set to?
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Ways to toggle between modes are missing.

I'm thinking, a key binding for tristate-toggling of turrets could be implemented, as is done now with guns. So instead of toggling between enabled and disabled, they'd toggle between auto, manual, disabled.

And turrets should appear on the gun list thus, I think.

In any case, I don't think Vega Trek should use turrets. Their mechanics don't match phaser mechanics as well as auto-tracking does.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: Ways to toggle between modes are missing.
I'm thinking, a key binding for tristate-toggling of turrets could be implemented, as is done now with guns. So instead of toggling between enabled and disabled, they'd toggle between auto, manual, disabled.
So you mean add a 'disabled' mode where the turrets don't rotate even when there is a target selected? I don't think you can disable fixed guns or missiles.
And turrets should appear on the gun list thus, I think.
Good thinking.
In any case, I don't think Vega Trek should use turrets. Their mechanics don't match phaser mechanics as well as auto-tracking does.
I think that is due to the failings of the current turret implementation though. If turrets were done right, they'd completely replace auto-tracking.
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
In any case, I don't think Vega Trek should use turrets. Their mechanics don't match phaser mechanics as well as auto-tracking does.
I think that is due to the failings of the current turret implementation though. If turrets were done right, they'd completely replace auto-tracking.
No, I don't think so.

Auto-tracking is a way to auto-aim weapon mounts. It's exactly what happens with phasers, they're aimed electronically as are electronically-steered radars, and it's inherently instantaneous, whereas turrets aren't and won't be, as they're tied to sub-units.

Turrets are destructible, but phaser banks not so much. The enterprise D's phaser banks, for instance, consist of hundreds of emitter segments, and the array can work with some damaged segments, so it's not like a lucky hit would destroy them. To disable phasers you'd have to damage some internal mechanism that is a single point of failure (or multiple such points), which is better addressed by a locatable-upgrades-based damage model.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

Perhaps so, it was never clear to me how the trek universe and its tech supposedly worked. In some shows/films the weapons come out of turrets and in others they seem to appear out of nowhere.
klauss wrote: Ways to toggle between modes are missing.

I'm thinking, a key binding for tristate-toggling of turrets could be implemented, as is done now with guns. So instead of toggling between enabled and disabled, they'd toggle between auto, manual, disabled.
Do you mean cycling through and selecting specific types/groups of turrets the way you can with guns using the 'g' key or missiles using the 'w' key?
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:Perhaps so, it was never clear to me how the trek universe and its tech supposedly worked. In some shows/films the weapons come out of turrets and in others they seem to appear out of nowhere.
As all sci-fi films and series... consistency is comparable to a flan. But at least there TNG got it right, and Vega Trek seems ambianced in the TNG era.
Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote: Ways to toggle between modes are missing.

I'm thinking, a key binding for tristate-toggling of turrets could be implemented, as is done now with guns. So instead of toggling between enabled and disabled, they'd toggle between auto, manual, disabled.
Do you mean cycling through and selecting specific types/groups of turrets the way you can with guns using the 'g' key or missiles using the 'w' key?
Yep.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

Alright then, how about this:
Revised Turret Control wrote: This is a new control scheme for turrets with the intent of making control simpler and more direct for the player. It has two modes, default and automatic.

Turrets will have a direct fire command that operates the same way as the gun and missile fire commands. When in default mode, all selected turrets will fire when this fire key is pressed or held down and halt firing when it is released. Turrets will train themselves on the ship's current target by default. If there is no target, they will return to their rest orientations.

When in automatic mode, turret's select hostile targets according to their own AI and then fire at will.

In either mode, the player can still enter manual control of any one of the turrets as he could before. When he does so the other turrets will continue operating according to the their current mode, and when he leaves his turret it too will go back to operating according to its current mode.

As with the fixed gun and missile weapons, all turrets can be selected and controlled at once or in groups of the same model (i.e. "Ktek Beam Turret", "Missile Turret MKII", etc.) Any commands to fire or change turret mode will only be applied to and remembered by the turret group(s) selected at the time. The selected turret group(s) and their current mode will be displayed in the weapon side panel after the "gun" and "missile" sections under a "turret" section.

Altogether there will be no more than four key commands for controlling turrets-- Fire Turrets, Cycle Turret Modes, Cycle Turret Groups and Control Turret (cycles through manual control of individual turrets). There will no longer be a key for explicitly assigning turrets a target since the two modes will handle this implicitly.
Also which milestone should it be assigned to?
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Sounds about right.

I don't know, doesn't seem like a minor change. Use your discretion.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

Done. Scheduled for 0.5.4.
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

Lets hope we stick to the roadmap.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

Well we certainly won't the way it is now. There's tasks on the roadmap scheduled in ancient times by pyramid, chuck_starchaser and safemode (before his second coming) which have been more or less abandoned. Yet they are scheduled for the near term 0.5.3 and 0.5.4 releases.

If we clear this stuff out, the roadmap may look a lot more realistic.
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Re: turrets

Post by klauss »

I plan on ignoring most of those. Not all though. If I can take a task, and is worth it, I might steal it.
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Re: turrets

Post by TBeholder »

esgaroth wrote:As the phaser banks dont seem to work with the current engine
Really? That's weird. I certainly remember writing a patch that indicated the number of still-functional weapons in a bank - and testing it on tweaked VS data, too.
Weapon banks do need more support on upgrade installation side, however.
Deus Siddis wrote:I believe turrets would be excellent for modeling the kind of weapons your mod uses, except that they currently lack some important features:
Direct Fire Control of Multiple Turrets. Currently you cannot fire all turrets at the target for as long as you hold down the fire key and no longer.
Aye. :)
I think this will have to be implemented after sorting out classes - meaning that ship parts won't necessarily be full "sub-units" with corresponding overhead (hopefully, smashing the ugliest of current turret-related bugs in process).
This would allow proper Weapon Control System, where the only difference between "turrets" and "mounts" is a control channel (turrets can acquire targets on their own), but also mechanical autotracking (also, we have mount models, hey?) and listing allowed features in the ruleset. I.e. "ship part" for a mount slot installs N guns of the given type (thus converting banks into a more fitting form :wink: ), but a turret part has a separate "cockpit" instead of adding to the main ship's (so you manually switch to this separate set of controls or let AI run it) and also usually has a sensor and shield of its own - yet both a turret and a capship's main gun has its own hitpoints and can be targetted separately.
Note that weapons themselves already have assigned Role or !Role list - e.g. NPC in VS will fire Heavy Tractor at ships, but not basic Tractor because the latter has role="CARGO INERT" and thus AI won't use it against anything else.
Deus Siddis wrote: Turret Groups. Currently all turrets are commanded at once, regardless of the type of turret or weapons it carries. You can fire everything or nothing at all.
AI obeys role priorities, though. So PD turrets should target missiles while fighter turrets AI targets ships, etc. If all is set up correctly, that is.
Deus Siddis wrote:Rotation Limits. I don't think you can limit a turret to rotating/firing only 90º ahead or 120º to port, for examples.
Already here. See "turret_90" and "turret_120" vs. "turret" and "turretflak_90" and "turretflak_120" vs "turretflak" in VegaStrike units.csv for differences.
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Re: turrets

Post by Deus Siddis »

TBeholder wrote: I think this will have to be implemented after sorting out classes - meaning that ship parts won't necessarily be full "sub-units" with corresponding overhead (hopefully, smashing the ugliest of current turret-related bugs in process).
Indeed, VS seems to treat everything as a unit or subunit. Or in the case of turrets, two subunits. I think VS needs OGRE integration first for its animation support and then turrets can be reimplemented in a way specific to their needs.
AI obeys role priorities, though. So PD turrets should target missiles while fighter turrets AI targets ships, etc. If all is set up correctly, that is.
I know, but you might want to override the AI control on some turrets but not others. Like leave PD turret in auto mode to protect against missiles while you take direct control of heavier turrets to concentrate their fire on a hostile vessel.
Already here. See "turret_90" and "turret_120" vs. "turret" and "turretflak_90" and "turretflak_120" vs "turretflak" in VegaStrike units.csv for differences.
Are you referring to the "restricted" entry in the list under the "Sub_Units" column of units.csv?
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Re: turrets

Post by TBeholder »

Deus Siddis wrote:
TBeholder wrote: I think this will have to be implemented after sorting out classes - meaning that ship parts won't necessarily be full "sub-units" with corresponding overhead (hopefully, smashing the ugliest of current turret-related bugs in process).
Indeed, VS seems to treat everything as a unit or subunit. Or in the case of turrets, two subunits. I think VS needs OGRE integration first for its animation support and then turrets can be reimplemented in a way specific to their needs.
Two subunits are purely graphical solution - if a model can be allowed two axis rotation (like Franklin's), there's one subunit. If not the overhead, this would be fine.
It's all about handling of classes. OGRE in itself wouldn't help - the problem is in mechanical model's additive elements and joints/constrains, not graphics.
VS seems to treat everything as a unit or subunit because there's almost nothing else. It's all in comprehensive, but for the same reason unwieldy "Unit" class. Except those Lights and Mounts, which have their models/functionality handled as something very special, while external lights, if any, are a part of the main model.
Replacing subunits with minimized "mechanical parts" would cut overhead (and some bugs) and allow to go all out in the current engine just as well. This would also allow to implement WC style damage model immediately and e.g. closeable weapon ports or Frontier style undercarriage with some tinkering. Or relatively easy refining of pipe/slot/resourse handling for details like per-mount capacitors and servos with minimum of overhead or nuisance.
Deus Siddis wrote:
Already here. See "turret_90" and "turret_120" vs. "turret" and "turretflak_90" and "turretflak_120" vs "turretflak" in VegaStrike units.csv for differences.
Are you referring to the "restricted" entry in the list under the "Sub_Units" column of units.csv?
And fore vector from which the angle is counted, too - turret lines themselves define restriction on raising the "turretgun" subunit; turret placements on ships have "horizontal" turning restrictions the same way.
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