unwitnessed kilrathi capships:

Discuss the Wing Commander Series and find the latest information on the Wing Commander Universe privateer mod as well as the standalone mod Wasteland Incident project.
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chuck_starchaser
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I think this problem is more serious than it seems on the surface.
Good post, Snow Cat, but those quotations don't exactly answer the question of whether a Drayman fits or is meant to fit through the hangar doors of a carrier. Personally, I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure.
Snow_Cat wrote:^ - -^ These seem to indicate that the Drayman does dock with ships the size of a strike carrier such as the Tiger's Claw.
Yes, but the fact that they "dock with" carriers does not imply that they dock *inside*. In fact, I highly doubt that the refueling points would be located inside the hangar bay, which leads me to believe that, at least when refueling, they dock externally.

So, if I assume that Draymans don't go into carriers, then we have a problem...
Shissui wrote:If they need protecting, their cargo will do that job.
Yes and no; their cargo maybe enough protection in an exploratory mission into an unknown system where nothing worse than dormant Steltek egg is expected. But they could be a huge liability to have around during fleet engagements. Like going to war taking your kids with you.

And if I were to assume that Draymans do fit into carriers, we have an even bigger problem: The amount of space they would take up. But I've seen examples of typical escort loadouts for WC carriers, in Wikipedia I think it was, and certainly none of them include any Draymans.

So, I think we may have to invent a ship here, to have these tenders. I'd almost say forget about the tenders, but we need for the player to have one, already, as a privateer; otherwise his own ship would be a liability to the carrier. Won't fit inside; won't live long outside. We need something slightly bigger than a Drayman/Dilligent, with space for maybe 3 to 5 escorts, but tough as a nut, with a few turrets and missile launchers, and able to hold its own in heated battle. What's the terran equivalent of a khamekh? The khamek is a corvette. Do we have any terran corvettes dating to prewar days?

RE: Destroyers 101, nice link; I'm in love now. I fell in love with the Gilgamesh. I want to model that baby soon.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Seems to me the only corvette known back in those days is the Venture,
http://www.wcnews.com/ships2/wc1venture.shtml
Which is considerably smaller than a Drayman. Well, 80 meters long, compared to 96 meters for a Drayman, but a lot thinner vertically. The page doesn't mention whether it can launch escorts...
Keeps looking to me like we're gonna have to invent a ship...
Any more info than that on the Victory class? (Though, the fact that it's classified as a "transport" doesn't sound too promising...)
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Post by snow_Cat »

Dictionary.com wrote:tend·er /ˈtɛndər/ [ten-der] –noun
  1. a person who tends; a person who attends to or takes charge of someone or something.
  2. an auxiliary ship employed to attend one or more other ships, as for supplying provisions.
  3. a dinghy carried or towed by a yacht.
  4. Railroads. a car attached to a steam locomotive for carrying fuel and water.
[Origin: 1425–75; late ME; orig. aph. var. of attender; see tend2, -er1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
CIC:Tender - (ex. FRLS Sindri) is the only specific 'tender' vessel I know of in WC cannon; More, the demise of the FRLS Sindri indicates that no, Tender vessels would not 'hold their own in combat' the way a strike carrier could. These vessels are indeed a huge liability and are kept out battle for that reason.
^ - -^ Remember all those missions run against CIC:Dorkir and CIC:Dorkathi?


^- - ^ Personally I think in WC a 'transport' really is more akin to a train, where specific cars are attached depending on the role it is to play.

Wedge009 wrote:Halcyon: We’ve got a Code Red alert, people. At least half a dozen Kilrathi fighters, coming in fast. With Blue Devil and Star Slayer squadrons out on patrol, you Killer Bees will have to stop them yourselves. We’ve got two Hornets in space already, and we’ll scramble the remaining wings at double-time. Maverick, you and Paladin will be first out the launch tube. Iceman and Dragon will be next, followed by Bossman and Redbird. Remember, people, this is for all the marbles. Stop these fighters, or you’ll have no place to land! So let’s get to it! Squadron dismissed!
Wedge009 wrote:Halcyon: Good landing, Maverick. How did things go out there?
Wedge009 wrote:Halcyon: Pilots, there are several waves of enemy fighters on final approach to the Tiger’s Claw. We’re nearly across the border, but we won’t get there unless you stop those fighters. We’ll launch waves of fighters one after another – clear the area of enemy fighters, then land immediately. We’ve detected a Snakeir, three Fralthi, and four Ralari on an intercept course. So don’t stray too far from the Claw, we must escape before that strike force arrives. And if we have to leave you behind when we jump out-system, we will. Wing assignments… Blair and Marshall are Upsilon Wing.
Wedge009 wrote:Halcyon: Remember, if you run into one or two stray Kilrathi, you should engage the enemy. But if you see any sign that the convoy has diverted to this system, return to the Claw immediately. And HQ has reported encounters with the Dralthi Mark IIs in the Vega sector – Dralthi with mass drivers and better shields. HQ could use some good vid-camera data on these new ships. So if you sight any of these new Dralthi, get close and your vid-camera will get that data for us. And something else I wanted to mention. Hunter did a bolter yesterday, a two-point ‘touch and go’ landing. He managed to snap off one of his ship’s laser cannons, break three aerials, and terrify the flight deck crew. Pilots, we use the ACLS – our auto landing system – for very good reasons. The next hot-shot pilot who tries a manual control landing will be scrubbing decks for a week. Is that understood? All right, pilots. Prepare for launch. Dismissed.
^ - -^ (in the context of the Tiger's Claw) establish landing to mean entering the ship.
Wedge009 wrote:Halcyon: Pilots, we’ve had an unusual new development. Confed HQ has received a coded vid-link transmission from a Kilrathi commander in the approaching battle fleet. Captain Ralgha and his top officers are requesting asylum from the Confederation. And they’re bringing a Fralthi and twenty Kilrathi fighterships with them. Your assignment is simple. Make sure those officers and ships arrive here intact. The TCS Austin pilots have already rendezvoused with the stolen Fralthi. So there’s a Human crew aboard as well, just in case those cats change their minds. Most of you will be escorting the individual Kilrathi starfighters, but I need someone to bring in the Fralthi.
Maverick: I know I can do it, Colonel.
Halcyon: All right, Maverick. You and Spirit will fly this one as Omicron Wing. This is your flight plan. Head to the rendezvous point at Nav 1, checking your route for enemy fighters. The Kilrathi don’t know that Ralgha is defecting, but we can’t take any chances. You’ll meet the Fralthi at Nav 1, and escort him home.
...
Maverick: I headed out to the captured Fralthi. The Kilrathi must’ve known what Ralgha was planning because there was a reception committee waiting for him. But I brought the Fralthi in, sir. They should be docking with us now.
^- - ^ (in the context of the Tiger's Claw) establish docking to mean coupling with the ship.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Good research, Snow Cat; thanks. That's what I would have thought the meanings of 'landing' and 'docking' would be; but it's nice to see it confirmed.

Okay, here's a ship you've never heard of, I bet... The Cutter class:

Image

Cutter Class (corvette/heavy transport/tender :))
Length: 140 meters
Mass: 5000 tons
Speed: 190 kps (has to be able to catch up with a carrier)
Acceleration: Not zero
Turning: Eventually
Turrets: 4 single mount medium lasers
Guns: 2 heavy mass drivers
Missiles: 36
Torpedos: 2
Crew: 20 (7 pilots, 1 astro, 1 officer, 1 engineer, 5 gunners, 5 maintenance)
(7 pilots because, 2 for the Cutter ship, 5 for escorts)
Escorts: 5
Jump capable: Yes
Armor: Very heavy.

Variants:

Military: Tanker, transport, stealth transport, corvette.
A specially modified variant has 2 heavy tractor beams, for ship immobilization and boarding.
Civilian: Cargo ship, exploration ship, off world gambling casinos.

History:

Production started in 2615. Confeds thought it was too expensive. Manufacturer went out of business by 2628. Second hand Cutters became collectors' items, fetching up to 3 times the price brand new when still in production. As the Kilrathi conflict begins to intensify, Confeds begin to confiscate privately owned Cutters. Chen, who'd acquired one at a very good price from a satisfied client, eventually is told to turn his ship over to the Confeds, but manages to negotiate keeping ownership in exchange for flying missions for the Confed, at the Kilrathi front.

Real (secret) military use for Cutters: Drawing fire. They are so tough that kats just waste their time trying to take them out before the carrier.
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Post by snow_Cat »

^ - -^ Interesting,
^- - ^ This Cutter sounds like a precursor to the CIC:Pelileu class Assault Transport, which was surpassed by the more economical Drayman as the Assault Transport of choice.
CIC wrote:The Pelileu class is a type of assault transport which carries landing craft.
CIC wrote:M-77s are light ground assault vehicles. Used by the Marines, two of them will fit on a marine assault landing craft.
CIC wrote:Troopship: The Terran Confederation Marine Corps often uses Drayman transports rather than more valuable assault transports. The troopships carry one hundred marines and a crew of twenty-five. Noted Drayman troopships include the TCS General Powell, which participated in the attack on the Sivar-Eshrad ceremony at Firekka. Ten Drayman troopships escaped the G'wriss System carrying 1,000 marines during Custer's Carnival.
CIC wrote:Unfortunately, we don't have official specifications for this Assault Shuttle at this time.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Great find, Snow Cat. Pelileu...

There is a USS Pelileu; a Tarawa class assault ship...
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/tarawa_class.htm
Still around; participated in the Afghanistan conflict...
http://www.ndu.edu/inss/Books/Books_200 ... 0_ch29.htm


EDIT:
How about I call this the "Sangamon" class?
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/s ... _class.htm
Those were designed to be carriers but ended up being used as transports, and were all scrapped in the end.
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Post by Shissui »

chuck_starchaser wrote:So, I think we may have to invent a ship here, to have these tenders. I'd almost say forget about the tenders, but we need for the player to have one, already, as a privateer; otherwise his own ship would be a liability to the carrier.
If we are to invent an explicit "Fleet Tender", then I suggest to model this ship with an engine at the back, work space at the front & a blank spine connecting them. Then, it has external hooks for up to 3 medium/heavy fighters or 6 light fighterts. It should also have, perhaps, 100 cargo. (I pick 3/6 because physical geometry makes it easier to pack objects hexagonally.)

Consider -- A speed of order 200 to 250 with "fair" accelleration. Jump drive. Over strength shields (They must cover the fighters too). Heavy tractor beam, omnidirectional; 3 heavy hardpoints forward. Rear heavy turret.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Hmm... That's a bit of an "uber-ship", Shissui. If you want speed, we can have speed; if you want heavy turrets we can have them; if you want powerful shields/armor, we can have them. But we can't have all of those things, or else this ship becomes invincible, and game balance goes out the window.
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Post by Shissui »

Those were just first thoughts.

Hack the guns back first. Then the speed, if you feel that is not enough.
I had in mind that it should be armed a bit like a centurion, with shielding comparable to a drayman & speed like a very slow fighter.

As the fighters are mounted externally, there is (functionally) no armour before cargo takes damage.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Shissui wrote:Those were just first thoughts.

Hack the guns back first.
Well, I gave it pretty little armament, as you see; just 4 turrets and 2 forward guns. I can change that, of course. But my thought was that this ship is something between a transport and a corvette, so it can't be as good as either in either role. A typical corvette has more armament, and a typical cargo for this size of ship would perhaps carry more stuff, or do it faster. But again, if this ship is partially a corvette, then it can't be as good as a transport at transporting.
We shouldn't be thinking like engineers, trying to make it better. We should think like marketers, trying to make it worse, so as to be able to have a better model next year :D
No, seriously; coming up with better ships and weapons is the achilles heel of game-makers. One must exercise maximum restraint.
In any case, I have 2 turrets at the back already. I could add a flak perhaps.
Then the speed, if you feel that is not enough.
Ditto. I made it slower than a Venture, but probably not slow enough; but then again, I don't want to make the game too boring.
I had in mind that it should be armed a bit like a centurion, with shielding comparable to a drayman & speed like a very slow fighter.
No. Sorry if I'm seeming overly argumentative, but this ship is much larger than a heavy fighter. This is 140 meters long, and it isn't exactly thin. Of course it's much better armed than a Centurion, but not in the sense of forward weapons, since it can hardly turn, anyways; but in the sense of having capship turrets and missiles galore. And its shielding is better than a Drayman's by a long shot, for sure, since it's bigger than a Drayman, and meant to function as a corvette; not just as a transport.
As the fighters are mounted externally, there is (functionally) no armour before cargo takes damage.
Not sure why you don't want armor over the fighters. The whole point was to make a ship that, unlike a Drayman, can take some heavy battle. So, naturally, it has a need for armor. Might as well make it cover the dockings. But also, I'm not sure how jump drives work, but I've never seen a ship carried by another externally across jump points. I may be wrong.

But to summarize, I was trying to come up with a Corvette that's a bit less than a real corvette, in exchange for being a bit more like a transport. My inspiration sources were the Drayman, Venture and Gilgamesh for shape and feel, and the Khamek for size and role.

EDIT:
Take a look at tht Khamek, Shissui:
http://www.wcnews.com/ships/wc2kamekh.shtml
Length: 135 meters
Mass: 1300 tons
Max/Cruise speed: 200/100
Accel: Poor
Guns: 3 Flak
Missiles: 2x3 IR
Torps: 4
Phase shields
Front/rear armor: 300 cm
Right/left armor: 280 cm

We wouldn't want our ship to be better than that; but it already is, as it is.
It is the same length as a Khamek, but 4 times as massive. Accordingly, a bit slower: 190 kps max speed, vs. 200. It has 2 forward guns, 4 turrets and 36 missiles, though only 2 torpedos. And naturally it will have more armor. Not sure how much, but probably 400 cm. We should be looking for ways to cripple it a bit. Unfortunately, we can't cripple its speed any more, as it has to be able to catch up to a carrier in order to be a transport. And we can't cripple its hit points, othewise we're back at the problem of these ships being liabilities to a fleet. And we can't cripple their fighter compliment if they are meant to project power. Perhaps I should get rid of the forward guns, and remove one of the turrets, and put just two missile launchers instead of four as I was planning.
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Post by Shissui »

chuck_starchaser wrote:
Shissui wrote:Hack the guns back first.
Well, I gave it pretty little armament, as you see; just 4 turrets and 2 forward guns.
That is more than *I* gave it -- 3 guns & 1 turret & one tractor.
I could add a flak perhaps.
Flak is an excellent idea. Scrap the hardpoint of your choice for it.
As the fighters are mounted externally, there is (functionally) no armour before cargo takes damage.
Not sure why you don't want armor over the fighters.
Reduced production cost & faster catch/release. Additionally, it is not our customary transport -- the "cargo space" is dedicated to fighter transport.
The whole point was to make a ship that, unlike a Drayman, can take some heavy battle. So, naturally, it has a need for armor.
Yep -- now it is *my* turn to say "stop thinking like an engineer." This is, indeed, a design flaw. It will, in due course, be corrected before the end of the war. However, even late in the war, there will be the occasional shuttle jocky who still likes these ships because of the fast catch & release and lower ship weight (& so faster than its armoured cousin).

I propose this flaw partly because *I* might personally be one of those crazies who would sacrifice the armour for hitting the return trip jump just a little faster; and partly because this ship would never get built without the armour after the real world feedback started resulting in redesigns. This ship could only ever happen in WC0.
But to summarize, I was trying to come up with a Corvette that's a bit less than a real corvette, in exchange for being a bit more like a transport. . . . It is the same length as a Khamek, but 4 times as massive.
But a Kameh can carry a great deal more than 6 Demons or 3 Broadswords. I think that you have over-grown this ship. It should be smaller.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Okay, I understand that you might prefer to sacrifice armor for speed, and if it was for me, I'd have the same preference. But the problem I was trying to adress is that a capship that avoids trouble by running away doesn't make for a good escort to a carrier. I admit that it does solve exactly half of the problem, namely the problem of these ships being liabilities. If they are fast enough to run away, they are less of a worry. But to be good team players they should be able to fight alongside the carrier. More than that, they should be protecting the carrier, since carriers are carriers, and NOT cruisers.

That's why I chose to sacrifice speed for armor: Even if they are rather lightly armed, they help the carrier just by being there and drawing fire to themselves (and NOT blowing up, of course). At worst, they are like extra armor for the carrier, as well as extra deck space and extra space for supplies. At best they score some kills, thicken the space with missiles, lauch a torpedo or two, and sometimes serve as per your tender duty. But I don't want to design them to be so specialized as tenders as to make them so to the cataclismic detriment of their escorting and transporting roles. As a matter of fact, I think that them being designed for dual purposes, corvette and transport, is already a handful. I'd rather not even consider tender roles at all, design wise.

And you should be glad, because this allows you to make your fleet officer a character with vision and spirit, who takes these ships designed for one set of roles, and makes them serve a different one; rather than someone who's just following procedures by the book.

My other problem with carrying escorts outside, as I said before, is I don't know how the jump drive works, exactly, but it's certainly not by producing a typical electric or magnetic-like field that falls by the square of the distance to the source. It's some kind of homogeneous field that moves the entire ship across a jump in a single piece. But if this field is homogeneous and yet not infinite, then it must be bounded rather sharply. I presume the bounding is possibly controlled by something on the surface of the ships. If so, ships that it carries with it across a jump point must be fully contained. This may be very speculative on my part, but like I said, I haven't seen or heard of a ship carrying other ships on the outside across jump points, in WC; have you?; and I feel very uncomfortable about messing around with the pseudoscience, --unless it were to deliberately fix it--, but otherwise I'd rather follow the traditions than risk raising all kinds of questions and drawing undue attention to the regrettable, albeit necessary perhaps, pseudoscience.

Besides, I don't know what the external open dockings would look like, so we'd probably end up adopting Vegastrike's external dockings and docking methods and maneuvres. Now, there's nothing wrong with VS dockings, but that's Vegastrike, and this is WC. Just to clarify: I may be sounding very unlike myself, to those who know me, but what I've always argued about the non-sacredness of canon is when confronted with the possibility to make a deliberate improvement to the game experience. In this case I'm yet to be convinced that there's any benefit at all whatsoever to be obtained from having external ship attachments, let alone some huge benefit that justifies breaking with the WC traditions.
Shissui wrote:Reduced production cost & faster catch/release. Additionally, it is not our customary transport -- the "cargo space" is dedicated to fighter transport.
1) Perhaps you missed my Cutter Class post entirely... I specifically said about the ship's history, that as a retcon to the fact that it is not later seen in WC1,2,etc., that the ship's production stopped because the Confeds found it too expensive. So your first argument --production cost-- would gratuitously deny me that one way of explaining its later disappearance.
2) I don't see why a catch/release without a roof is faster than one with one. The only difference it makes is as to the direction of release; not the speed. In fact, what about catapults?
3) If the cargo space is dedicated to fighter transport, then this is neither a cargo transport nor a corvette, but a carrier. You are trying to "specialize" this ship for tender role, and that's not a good idea. It sends us back to square 1: Like a Drayman, being a liability or utterly useless in fleet engagements. Plus, now it wouldn't be any good as a supplies transport. And last but not least, we'd have to change the story about Chen having his own, for it wouldn't serve the cargo transporting needs of a privateer.

Furthermore, if indeed there WAS some clear and profound benefit from carrying ships on the outside, then we'd probably NOT want to take advantage of it anyways; or else we'd have to retcon all the rest of WC: to explain why external dockings aren't used more often.

In other words, I see endless trouble, and no benefits whatsoever, to carrying fighters on the outside.

As for the ship being too big, I think I can agree to that...

Image

It's got a lot of weight to lose... Should either be thinner, like a Khamek, or smaller in all 3 dimensions....
Let me think about it.
I think I can make the rectangular section a bit narrower, and perhaps that alone will do like 50% of the trick. Then just give it an extra shrink in all directions, to, say, 120 meters long, instead of 140...

EDIT: How about I make the two front turrets (top and bottom) lasers, and the two rear turrets flak?
And should I leave the forward facing mass drivers in the wings there, or get rid of them?
Sorry, I know very little about guns and stuff.
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Post by Shissui »

chuck_starchaser wrote:Okay, I understand that you might prefer to sacrifice armor for speed, and if it was for me, I'd have the same preference. But the problem I was trying to adress is that a capship that avoids trouble by running away doesn't make for a good escort to a carrier.
The job of this ship is not to protect the carrier. The "tender" is intended to extend the reach of the carrier. It is not expected to be in the locality of a fight (though such things are bound to happen). This ship is to serve as a bridge at a controlled jump point. It should grab, jump & drop fighters, then jump back; pick up more fighters (if needed) & repeat. As it is to be stationed at jump points, it should have comm gear to serve as an improvised relay station, so that the carrier & the ships in the next system can stay in touch.

They are not designed to jump into ambush -- to attack an ambush requires much more force & delivered faster, so the carrier proper should jump instead. There is no purpose to sending them with an assault force, they cannot keep up with a strike group of fighters. If their jump point is threatened, they cannot carry enough fire power to protect it & would be much too expensive to build if they could. Rather, the fighters assigned to this system should do that while the tender reports the action to the other side. If the carrier proper is under attack, they are unlikely even to be in the vicinity and so cannot assist directly. Rather, if the carrier needs more support, they should ferry fighters BACK to this system instead of fighting.

SO, these ships are unlikely to be anything like the liability that you expect.

However, they will be obsolete in Privateer/WC1 because jump drives are getting smaller & cheaper. They will be near extinct later in the war because anything they might carry can get there faster without the help. This explains why they are not in the CIC directory.
But I don't want to design them to be so specialized as tenders as to make them so to the cataclismic detriment of their escorting and transporting roles.
Would you rather take a more expensive ship out of the battle ?

I picked it's carry capacity as the smallest group of fighters that could usefully be dropped in a nearby system. If more are needed, it can make more laps. This is intended to be the smallest ship that can (currently) justify having a jump drive installed.
And you should be glad, because this allows you to make your fleet officer a character with vision and spirit, who takes these ships designed for one set of roles, and makes them serve a different one; rather than someone who's just following procedures by the book.
I do not think that the captain's vision is likely to be in question -- his ship survived in the first place by not following the book.
But if this field is homogeneous and yet not infinite, then it must be bounded rather sharply. I presume the bounding is possibly controlled by something on the surface of the ships. If so, ships that it carries with it across a jump point must be fully contained.
So you do not think that the shields actually constitute a reasonable boundary? I think that they just did not want to model something that would change in flight & never thought about it. If it really bothers you, pull a canvas over the fighters when loaded.
Besides, I don't know what the external open dockings would look like, so we'd probably end up adopting Vegastrike's external dockings and docking methods and maneuvres. Now, there's nothing wrong with VS dockings, but that's Vegastrike, and this is WC.
Actually, there *is* something wrong with VS dockings -- you never see anything docked. The closest that I have ever seen was a Clydesdale doing the Yoni/Phalus thing with a Rlaan mining base.
In this case I'm yet to be convinced that there's any benefit at all whatsoever to be obtained from having external ship attachments, let alone some huge benefit that justifies breaking with the WC traditions.
The external mounting is not an essential feature of this ship. So, pull a permanent canvas over the cargo space. At that point, we are back to the Drayman with the fighter bay upgrade, which can serve just fine. This saves you some modeling.
1) Perhaps you missed my Cutter Class post entirely
I saw it. However, it is a different animal with a different purpose.

I must do other work now. I will comment on the cutter later.
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Post by starlord »

sorry for the long silence, but it would seem those internet problems of mine are far from over, I'm posting this message from a friend's comp.

The cutter may be just the nifty little thing we were looking for, indeed, it looks like a nice compromise, although, I must confess, I never heard anything like it in the CIC.

You also refered at the kilrathi having a same ship: Actually, there might be a ship like this in the academy series: the kilrathi "tug", which is actually very well armed for a tug, can transport fighters\cargo, and is suited for search and rescue purposes.

I actually ran across a rumor on a kilrathi "blockade runner" and a kilrathi supercruiser but I don't know if those might have been WC0 era ships.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Shissui wrote:
chuck_starchaser wrote:1) Perhaps you missed my Cutter Class post entirely
I saw it. However, it is a different animal with a different purpose.
It is indeed. That's what I've been saying. I have no problem with its being used for an unheard of purpose in WC, but I have a big problem with it being designed and specialized for an unheard of purpose in WC.

Besides, it would be a lot less useful: You want the strategy of extending power into other systems to be optional, flexible; NOT mandatory. If there's a kat carrier fleet coming at you, you want to have all your ships together, to win the battle quickly to minimize your losses. What you're trying to do is forcing this strategy, by making a specialized ship for it. This would amount to forcing an over-extension of power about half the time. It reduces the commander's options.

And let me get this straight: You spoke of "tender" being a role, not a ship type or class. It was me who decided to come up with a new ship to fill several needs, not just your "tender" role. So all your sentences beginning with "a tender IS" are meaningless, because "the tender" ISN'T. Tender is a role, not a ship type. I never said I was designing a ship just for your tender role.
The cutter may be just the nifty little thing we were looking for, indeed, it looks like a nice compromise, although, I must confess, I never heard anything like it in the CIC.
Exactly; nor have I. I was looking for a Confed corvette that could have existed in pre-war times, and all I came up with was the Venture class. But the Venture class is really light, as corvettes go; more of a reconnoisance ship. No match for a Khamek, not suitable for carrier protection, there's no info on whether it carries escorts, and would be woefully inadequate as a supplies transport. It's a "lone ranger" corvette. But there's essentially no early "fleet-member corvette". I think such a situation justifies a new ship, but there has to be bad things about it to retcon the fact it is not seen later in WC1. I think the most common failures of design in general is feature-creep, and of ship design in particular any kind of multi-role ships. They are usually non-stellar at anything, and too expensive. So, I think this ship is a win-win-win solution for us.
You also refered at the kilrathi having a same ship: Actually, there might be a ship like this in the academy series: the kilrathi "tug", which is actually very well armed for a tug, can transport fighters\cargo, and is suited for search and rescue purposes.
You're right. I was thinking about the Khamek, but the tug seems like a closer match, indeed.

Update: I made it a bit thinner, and then shrunk it in all directions, so now it's 120 meters long. That's why the launch bays have grown in size relative to the ship. I haven't updated the tower yet; the windows will get appropriately larger.

Image
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Well, all I got done today was smooth-welding the tower:

Image

Just that I decided to finally write a tutorial on smooth welding, and so it took a lot longer... --taking screenshots at each step.
The turorial is here, for anyone interested:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/HowTo:Weld
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Post by snow_Cat »

Image Image ^ - -^ Preview of power-point presentation summarizing my take on this issue using node-graph logistics to explain both the economic principals justifying 'carriers and tenders' and why they are not seen in the regular deployment in game.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

T means Tons?, like the mass of the ship or station? So I suppose the numbers in the bottom half of the table you meant "kT"?
Not sure what your graph means. The arrows are examples of routes taken by each ship size? What are the big dotted circles?

Anyways, I totally agree with Shissui's theory and use of ships as tenders. What I'm adamantly opposed to is having a ship specially designed for tender role, as 1) there's nothing in WC mentioning tenders, whether by name or implication; making it too much of a departure from WC traditions to have such a ship; and 2) because in my firm opinion, a capital ship that travels with a carrier fleet must be well armored and capable of taking heat off the carrier. This allows you to spread out when you can; but to regroup otherwise. Having corvettes that are faster but weaker, that trade firepower for tractor beams, etc., locks you into a single operating strategy; and that, to me, is the mother of all no-no's. We cannot afford such a thing. And there's already a corvette that trades armor for speed: the Venture class.

And I also don't agree with its carrying escort ships on the outside. For many reasons... But just the fact that it's never been seen in WC is, to me, enough of a caution against doing it, unless there's a damn good reason for it. Certainly something not to be done capriciously.

And because we needed a corvette-sized ship that'd be 1) good for carrier escort as well as 2) transport, and 3) useful as cargo ship in civilian privateering, and 4) easy to explain as for its disappearing from the WC universe a while later... and that is what I explicitly set out to design; NOT a "tender ship class". Just a ship in line with WC traditions, primarily to serve as carrier escort and transport, and secondarily being usable as tender.

Maybe Shissui is new to WC culture and doesn't understand that there's a whole community out there that would reject outright as "non-WC" any such innovations as escorts being carried externally. Damn! I'm taking heat all the time, myself, just for wanting to greeble ships...

Speaking of which, I just greebled the Cutter up a bit:

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Post by snow_Cat »

^- - ^ There was a specially built tender ship in End Run, but it was destroyed before it could escape into the larger WC universe.

^ - -^ I disagree with Shissui's vision of how a 'tender' is built, however I do agree that it is an important role that is filled by other combat capable ships ahead of the boarder. Both the Cruiser and Destroyer classes each carried about a dozen fighters to/from areas adjacent the Strike Carrier, Bases and other Fighter pools in WC I. In WC II that number more than doubled to 40 and upto 60 depending on the loadout of a given mission.

^- - ^ In practice I would expect that in enemy territory a Strike group would use Cruisers and Destroyers to rotate (expend) fighters in areas beyond their Strike Carrier; On the front lines Star Bases and Fleet Carriers should use (adequately) durable Transports to maintain patrols in areas that do not have a permanent boat support facility; and behind those lines tender Tender ships could ferry small groups of fighters into areas that do not maintain a boat support facility.

^ - -^ In the presentation (that is choc-full of silly sleep-deprived mistakes like the missing k in kilo-metric-Tons) I try to illustrate how in areas of increasing danger/hostility the specific ship used to 'extend' a fleet would reflect that change, and by graphing nodes in those areas by a set of 'guidelines' it becomes clear how this keeps the bulk of heavy material (and the player in WC I and II) away from the lightest Tender ships.

^- - ^ in other news, I am currently building an ADC because I just realized thin none of my shiny 'new' machines have any place for my joystick to plugin.
^> <^ n *shakes paw* Freud!
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

snow_Cat wrote:^- - ^ There was a specially built tender ship in End Run, but it was destroyed before it could escape into the larger WC universe.
Interesting!
^ - -^ I disagree with Shissui's vision of how a 'tender' is built, however I do agree that it is an important role that is filled by other combat capable ships ahead of the boarder. Both the Cruiser and Destroyer classes each carried about a dozen fighters to/from areas adjacent the Strike Carrier, Bases and other Fighter pools in WC I. In WC II that number more than doubled to 40 and upto 60 depending on the loadout of a given mission.
Thanks for the info. So I was wrong in thinking there were no tenders in WC, but right in thinking they should be sturdy ships?
^- - ^ In practice I would expect that in enemy territory a Strike group would use Cruisers and Destroyers to rotate (expend) fighters in areas beyond their Strike Carrier; On the front lines Star Bases and Fleet Carriers should use (adequately) durable Transports to maintain patrols in areas that do not have a permanent boat support facility; and behind those lines tender Tender ships could ferry small groups of fighters into areas that do not maintain a boat support facility.
Okay.
^ - -^ In the presentation (that is choc-full of silly sleep-deprived mistakes like the missing k in kilo-metric-Tons) I try to illustrate how in areas of increasing danger/hostility the specific ship used to 'extend' a fleet would reflect that change, and by graphing nodes in those areas by a set of 'guidelines' it becomes clear how this keeps the bulk of heavy material (and the player in WC I and II) away from the lightest Tender ships.
Aha! So, we don't see Shissui's tenders because they are used mostly in the safer areas, closer to home; wheras the player is at the front; but we do see destroyer and cruiser tenders at the front.
Okay, I think I understand your graph now.
So, even the Cutter would probably make a pretty poor tender at the front. Though, if the striken carrier is going South, to the Kilrathi suburbs, perhaps there's not too many forces expecting them down there, so it might do for Shissui's story.
^- - ^ in other news, I am currently building an ADC because I just realized thin none of my shiny 'new' machines have any place for my joystick to plugin.
^> <^ n *shakes paw* Freud!
ADC as in "Analog to Digital Converter?
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Post by Shissui »

Really, I don't actually require the version of the tender that I proposed; or anything near it. That tender is merely the smallest/cheapest ship that I could think of that can fill the role.

The requirement for my portion of the story is that our absent carrier must, on departure from human space, retain most of it's ability to project force into nearby systems. The closer to it's full complement ability, the better. The more numbers of ships able to serve as jump bridge transport, the better. Again, the size of the ship has little importance, as long as it is at least 3 fighters per jump, so there might as well be some small ones in the mix. Whatever ship *does* get assigned to the bridging role will be spending days (or weeks) on detatched duty away from the carrier itself. So, again, smaller or older ships are preferable if only because they are less needed for last-line-of-defence duty.

Writing the story is appreciably easier if some portion of the carrier's ability to defend against a concerted attack has been compromised. However, in a pinch, I could manage with an entire carrier group without damage. If the group as a whole is to take damage, with minimal damage to the ability to project force, then it is easiest to start by taking out the ships with the highest firepower/cargo ratios. This usually means the cruisers and destroyers, but does not actually require that those ships get nuked. So, here we have a 3rd reason to favour the smallest ships around that actually support jump drives.

If people think this carrier should have a mega-battleship for close escort, then suddenly the cruisers look much smaller than before. After sacking said battle ship at the start, there would still be lots of ships left. However, if it's biggest escort were only a destroyer, then we would need a lot of cutters and smaller to fill in the gaps after the destroyers are gone. Beyond that, I can pretty well live with whatever fleet people want to foist on me. (That is, until I can think of new unreasonable requests to make).
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Shissui wrote:Really, I don't actually require the version of the tender that I proposed; or anything near it. That tender is merely the smallest/cheapest ship that I could think of that can fill the role.
I see. Okay, I hope you won't mind if I give you an expensive ship, then... :-) Seriously, I was trying to "think expensive", in order to retcon their not being around in WC1,2,3...
The requirement for my portion of the story is that our absent carrier must, on departure from human space, retain most of it's ability to project force into nearby systems. The closer to it's full complement ability, the better. The more numbers of ships able to serve as jump bridge transport, the better.
I was imagining the carrier having three Cutters with it when you arrive, thus making four. That was just the picture in my head, but the number could be anything you want; and you could include destroyers and cruisers too. That would alliviate the need for the Cutters to play fleet defense roles, but on the other hand, a carrier accompained by a Waterloo cruiser, two Gilgamesh destroyers and a dozen Cutters and other corvettes wouldn't be much of a "striken carrier", any more :D So, my picture was that, say, 2 Cutters would be sent out to explore nearby systems, and two would stay with the carrier for protection, taking turns perhaps.
Question: How do reconcile this carrier "projecting force into nearby systems" with the premise of its being a striken carrier in trouble? My understanding was that we'd gradually regain strength by piracy, by boarding khameks, by pillaging kat stations and depots, and eventually become very powerful. A "rags to riches" story. So, shouldn't we be fleeing for our lives, at the beginning, rather than trying to "project force"? I would have thought your tenders would come later in the story, and may be even be captured kilrathi ships. No?
Again, the size of the ship has little importance, as long as it is at least 3 fighters per jump, so there might as well be some small ones in the mix.
As you can see from the pics, I got 4 launch bays on/under the "wings", plus one more at the front. If we decide that each bay can host either a heavy fighter or two light fighters, then you can outfit it with any combination between 5 heavy fighters and 10 ligth fighters.
Whatever ship *does* get assigned to the bridging role will be spending days (or weeks) on detatched duty away from the carrier itself.
No problem.
So, again, smaller or older ships are preferable if only because they are less needed for last-line-of-defence duty.
Yes, but that is only IF there are other ships for last line of defense. In our case we don't have any cruisers or destroyers, or do we?; and as such, the ships we use for tendering ARE our last line of defense --adequate or not-- so they'd better be.
Writing the story is appreciably easier if some portion of the carrier's ability to defend against a concerted attack has been compromised. However, in a pinch, I could manage with an entire carrier group without damage. If the group as a whole is to take damage, with minimal damage to the ability to project force, then it is easiest to start by taking out the ships with the highest firepower/cargo ratios.
You mean "firepower/armor"?
This usually means the cruisers and destroyers, but does not actually require that those ships get nuked. So, here we have a 3rd reason to favour the smallest ships around that actually support jump drives.
You lost me... I see no connection.
If people think this carrier should have a mega-battleship for close escort, then suddenly the cruisers look much smaller than before.
Now I'm totally lost. Does "people" mean me? I never suggested any mega-battleships of any sort. In fact all I came up with is a corvette slightly better than the Drayman we were originally planning on, but less capable than a Khamek.
After sacking said battle ship at the start, there would still be lots of ships left. However, if it's biggest escort were only a destroyer, then we would need a lot of cutters and smaller to fill in the gaps after the destroyers are gone.
I don't understand anything... This was supposed to be a striken carrier, and now it has destroyers or bigger for escort, plus "many other ships"? I think you've changed the nature of the whole story and never told me about it or something...
Beyond that, I can pretty well live with whatever fleet people want to foist on me.(That is, until I can think of new unreasonable requests to make).
How about coming up with those requests now? What do you want this fleet to be? I was under the impression this was a lone carrier, all battered up. It was I who proposed it should have some of its fighter compliment still left. You had it having NO escorts at all left.
Now, if I'm reading you right, it's got cruisers and destroyers for escort?, and only needs light corvettes just to "project power"? I don't mind if you want to take a U-turn, but if we're working on something together you should communicate changes to the story, just so we're all on the same page.
Here I was trying to think how a lonely, defensless and helpless carrier could be protected by the player; and meanwhile you had in mind a whole fleet with cruisers and destroyers...
If I may suggest, how about editing the plot directly on the WC0 wiki page? That way we can all be "on the same page"... :)
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Post by snow_Cat »

^- - ^ It would seem to me that in the opening stages of the war the Kilrathi pushed too far into human territory creating-- leaving a number of ill equipped stations and transports behind them, possibly assuming that they were of no consequence as they could not directly attack on their own; And were largely unaware of the civil-unrest that had balkanized much of what would crystallize into the confederation under their pressure.

^ - -^ Sorry I don't know what the intended plot is; but this has just 'popped' into my head between staring at the poor port implementation in .NET and feeling cheated.

^- - ^ In generic-fantasy mode;
Dozens if not hundreds of ancient wrecked ships dot the barren wastes of space from the long distant civil-war. Government unwilling to commit the resources to move or destroy the wrecks have deployed meager tender ships to see if they are not looted by pirates and insurance brokers (who have not paid for the privilege). And so our player is assigned to seemingly the least consequential patrol in history to go off into the isolated waste of time and space that are the unnamed systems.

And so the player settles* into an atmosphere of tedium the player until disappointingly a colossal Kilrathi strike group sweeps through the area making the problem of the abandoned warship(s) moot in an obnoxious display of force, followed the the humiliating battery of the player's patrol group to 1/3 strength, before heading deeper into human territory with the parting shot "An inconsequential waste of water, not worth any further time".

*in-game tutorial, definitely tedious.

Leading the patrol to chase the strike group gathering forces from the dregs of other defeated patrols*. First nipping then biting into the invader's tail-- eventually leading to a showdown with the strike force in which the cocky bastards get their comeuppance caught between the enraged 'defenders' and an outgoing human Strike Force-

*(introducing 'new' space craft to the player as the game progresses);

-a strike force, dispatched to meet the invading force, which this group was only the leading edge of...

^- - ^ just a thought.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Good ideas, Snow Cat. You've inspired me. That's a very interesting scenario for Priv 0, before the war: Confeds publically insist that "we are NOT at war with the Kilrathi", but under the facade, there's a huge mobilization going on to prepare for war; --and not just in the sense of refurbishing and upgrading existing ships, designing and producing new ones; but a great intelligence mobilization: to try to know more about the kats, to find out how much they know about us, to forsee strategic scenarios.

One --almost-- forgotten detail: the wreckages left behind from the Pilgrim War. One visionary admiral considers this a high priority, to remove as much of the wreckage as possible from the front line systems. If left there, he argues, those remains could be found by the kats, and reveal to them details of terran technologies. Even if the kats had nothing new to learn from them, they would still gain an advantage just from the knowledge of what to expect from the terran warships.

He manages to obtain a limited budget, and hires privateers to do the hard work.

I'll be sure to make that part of Priv 0.


As for Shissui's carrier plot, much of the discussion was over email. In a nutshell, and in the way I knew it, it went: While the kats were on their way to attack McAuliffe, a pre-war carrier had been sent into Kilrathi territory via a different route. But as the kats are routed from McAuliffe, they retreat, closing in on the carrier. The carrier is outnumbered and outgunned, gets battered, and loses about half its escorts; and it barely manages to flee. The kats block the carrier's retreat while regrouping to give chase. The commander of the carrier is aware that he cannot go back the way he came, and that kat forces anywhere along the front line are probably making preparations to block the carrier's attempt to flee back into Confed space.

Meanwhile in McAuliffe, Paladin has figured out everything that's going on, so he sends Chen with an overflowing cargo of supplies, munitions and spare parts, to try to find the carrier. Paladin thinks the only way the carrier could be going is South of Kilrah. So Chen heads South, then South-East, and eventually finds the carrier. But the carrier's commander has knowledge or suspicions of a kat fleet coming South, along the front, to try and catch it. So the player has little chance of being able to head back to Confed space, and accepts the commander's offer to become an escort to the carrier.

So, I'm not sure if this is what Shissui had in mind, but it's what I pictured the strategy would be: the commander keeps on the move all the time, going from one system to another kind of at random, sending the player first across each jump point to verify its safety, and doing jump point telemetry at each new system, to find its jump points, or else observing kat movements; trying to find some way back. Meanwhile, they practise piracy on the kats, as a way to resupply, and sometimes capturing kat ships. Gradually, captured kat ships grow to a whole fleet, and captured khameks with no engines are attached to the carrier by a savvy engineer; so after attaching like 8 khameks to the carrier, the latter becomes a sort of (home-made) dreadnough in terms of size, armor and firepower, and can now fight its way back to Confed space.

That's how I knew the story, anyways; and I loved it.
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Post by Shissui »

chuck_starchaser wrote:So, I'm not sure if this is what Shissui had in mind
Close enough for the amount of detail that you can pack in a message of that length.

There are differences between your vision & mine, but not anything that we cannot beat to death before the scenarios & the models are finished.
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