How should we fix Origin's "Year Later..." error?

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:19 am

There's a horrible inconsistency in Origin's Righteous Fire:

Privateer starts in (early) 2669.
Righteous Fire begins by saying "A Year Later..."

Problem is, a year later puts us at 2670; months after the end of the Treaty of Torgo (2669.275), which ended the Human/Kilrathi War. But there is no mention or suggestion in Righteous Fire of an end of the war. Even if we were to consider the fact that some clans refused to accept the peace treaty and continued to have skirmishes with the Terran Confederation, these would have been minor skirmishes along the fronteer. But in Righteous Fire, there's a lot more than "skirmishes":

1) Supplying ships to the Retros (this would be an act of war, IMO)
2) Kilrathi incursions as far to the West as the systems around Capella.
3) Invasion by the 6th Fleet, under Commander Kahl, who in fact confesses to aiding the Retros.

Spiritplumber suggested we stick the military campaign between Privateer Part 1 and Righteous Fire, and let Righteous Fire happen in 2670. She considers that the end of the war justifies the surplus of kat ships, and could therefore help explain some kat clans' descision to divert ships from mothballing and into retro hands.

I'm voting for simply changing the opening screen of Righteous Fire from reading "A Year Later..." to reading "Some Time Later...". To me, this is the simplest and quickest solution. It breaks nothing, AFAIK, and simply fixes a gross oversight on the part of Origin.

To try to do otherwise, IMO, would require that we change Righteous Fire to include references to the war having ended AND to somehow explain or justify the 6th Fleet incursion, and the other stuff.

I'd think it would be *impossible* for the war to have ended and yet nobody, not even bartenders, mentioning the fact.

But I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions.

BTW, we can't just ignore the error, because the Privateer 3 story overlaps WC history, and includes a military campaign that has to be placed in war times, so we have to decide whether this campaign precedes or follows Righteous Fire.

Fireskull · Post by **Fireskull** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:31 am

Change a year later to some time later... that sounds very easy and... well, just sounds very easy. So, if its easy, why not?

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:10 am

it's certainly easier

my only problem with it is that this forces people who already have played priv (and probably the remake) to play through priv AND rf before getting to any of the new stuff... there should at least be a "preview of niftiness to come" between priv and rf. maybe a couple of extra terrel missions after which he gives you a confed credit card valid for jolson

we can do this whatever you guys decide to do storyline wise.

Terrel: "Since you won't take a Confed commission, tell you what -- here's the keys to a Sabre. You did a great job nailing that drone so I want you to do [mission X] for me using one of our fighters, I know you love flying and you're a damn good pilot so seeing what a real milspec fighter can do might change your mind."

Burrows: "Don't count on it -- but sure, I'll take the job, it'll cost you XXXXX and it's nice to know I won't have to pay for my own repairs for a change."

Terrel: "We can't give you XXXXX, we can give you XXX and a season pass for Jolson though. Your ship will be delivered over there, soafter you finish this job, just fly there. We'll take the Sabre back and return your ship to you."

Burrows: "Deal. I better not find a scratch on it though. And before you think about it, I'll take my green gun off and bring it with me."

Terrel: "What are you going to do, sleep with it?"

Burrows: "Considering that I've been hitting on anything remotely female in this game, I just might."

Terrel: "Just get that job done and see what you've been missing by not enlisting, we can discuss alien guns when you get back."

*they shake hands and burrow does one or two missions, maybe hunt down a big capship or something*

Jolson pleasure base, some time later...

by the way -------------- I'd like to do a few tweaks to the storyline introducing the new ships: Seelig could be flying a Cutlass (i mean, "go kill one guy in a lone talon"? what kind of mission is it? at least give the poor bastard a real ship), Miggs and henchmen could be flying Razors (maybe not Miggs, he wouldn't fit in the damn thing, but you get the drift -- I always thought that would be a good place for an Orion, it fits the character and it's very underused in plot missions), etc.... the Drayman carrying Hunter Thoth can be replaced by a passenger transport, for example.

A thought I had is that milita gladii could have leech guns or leech missiles to use in captures. Doesn't make a ton of difference game wise, but it adds flavor. Generally stuff like this.

Fireskull · Post by **Fireskull** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:20 am

eh

Just use both ideas. Change the title screen and have the new campaign happen between priv and RF. The kat disarmament thing would be just a unneeded extra amount of work, plus.. kilrathi are way too popular to disarm them

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:23 am

Burrows: "Considering that I've been hitting on anything remotely female in this game, I just might."

LOLOLOL!

There's another possibility we might want to consider: Including downloadable game modules in the start menu. For instance, in Starcraft, you're supposed to play the campaigns in Human, Zerg, then Protoss order. But you *can* play them disordered if you want; it just warns you.
And if you start a game without having played previous games in the sequel, you'd start with a Tarsus.
Also, just like you added the Keydence missions, we could add some more and make Priv/RF worth re-playing (not to mean that it isn't already, but even more so).

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:29 am

Fireskull wrote:eh

Just use both ideas. Change the title screen and have the new campaign happen between priv and RF. The kat disarmament thing would be just a unneeded extra amount of work, plus.. kilrathi are way too popular to disarm them

Actually, that's an option too; it's not like we're terribly pressed for time. We could fit the first military stint between Priv and RF, and the second one after RF, then Torgo.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:10 am

spiritplumber wrote:by the way -------------- I'd like to do a few tweaks to the storyline introducing the new ships: Seelig could be flying a Cutlass (i mean, "go kill one guy in a lone talon"? what kind of mission is it? at least give the poor bastard a real ship), Miggs and henchmen could be flying Razors (maybe not Miggs, he wouldn't fit in the damn thing, but you get the drift -- I always thought that would be a good place for an Orion, it fits the character and it's very underused in plot missions), etc.... the Drayman carrying Hunter Thoth can be replaced by a passenger transport, for example.

A thought I had is that milita gladii could have leech guns or leech missiles to use in captures. Doesn't make a ton of difference game wise, but it adds flavor. Generally stuff like this.

Wow! I'd missed all this. Great ideas! Here's one more: There are no shipyards in Gemini. There should be at least one, methinks, maybe in Perry or Tingerhoff.

EDIT:
Here's an example of what I was talking about:

A Righteous Fire, pirate base bartender wrote:Happy days are here again! You heard? The Confed is slipping in the war effort. And now they have the Retros to worry about, too. Hey, Iâ€™m as patriotic as the next guy. I donâ€™t want the Confed to give it upâ€¦ but this means theyâ€™re diverting their efforts away from law enforcement! Thatâ€™s good news here. The less Confed around, the better!

Here's another:

A Righteous Fire, refinery base bartender wrote:I heard a rumour the other day. Seems the Confeds are about to declare total war on the Retros. If they do, theyâ€™ll have to bring a lot of ships back from the front. That could be real good news for the Kilrathi. I donâ€™t think Geminiâ€™s ready to fight two enemies at once.

The war is all over the place in RF...

Post by **mkruer** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:39 am

Instead of "Sometime Laterâ€¦" I think it should be rephrased to "A Few Months Laterâ€¦"; Main reason is the word â€œsometimeâ€

Captin cocksniff · Post by **Captin cocksniff** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:25 am

"a few months later", is really the best option.
The original RF dosn't fit so it has to be changed.

I would even consider putting back PR a few months, to the end of 2668, have RF at the beginning of 2669 and PR3 after that (mid to end 2669)

Then the retro rise, coinsides with political instability, and a rise in kilrathi activity, and it makes more sence that the kilrathi are helping the retros dureing this time, and that confed is in troubble.

If we want to put a milatry plot between PR and RF, the 19th fleet missions would be fitperfictly at this time, and we could also incorperate the final refinement of Cloaking technology, (capture of a kilrathi stelth ship) which allows for the FINAL refinements made to Confed cloaking devices releaced in 2669. if i remember rightly.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:17 pm

Good point! Let's do it.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:12 pm

me too! </aol>

Hyena · Post by **Hyena** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:34 pm

I honestly think Origin never planned on having the war end in 2669 originally, hence the 'a year later' for RF. I think they may have wanted it to occur with the war still on.

Or, maybe they forgot RF took place in 2670 when they made Wing 3. Either way, to keep with the atmosphere that Privateer created, I dont think many would mind pushing back when PR takes place, in order to put the events of RF within the timeframe of the war.

Post by **klauss** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:51 pm

A few months later. Truly the best option. And, it does make sense to make PR, RF and P3 available independently without having to play the others. Like 3 prefabbed savegames, one at the beginning of PR, one at the beginning of RF, and one at the beginning of P3. Or whatever you can think of instead.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:59 pm

Prefabbed saved works fine with me

maybe have a .mission that sets your campaign score to whatever. Arrr.

blue_paladin42 · Post by **blue_paladin42** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:51 am

I actually have a problem with PR being so late in the war. And here is why. You see WCII ships, namely the Broadsword, and Spiritplumber mentioned a Sabre( bless its mechanical heart). Considering that WC III used some ships from WC armada, that leaves me to believe that most ships in WC III were not new, and that WCII ships were retired. So why would you see Broadswords In the last year or two of the war. Thats a BIG inconsisitency.I'd move PR back a couple years and to hell with canon. If Origins gonna make that big of a mistake, then they probably wouldn't care anyway

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:05 am

I guess that the Gemini Broadswords ended up there because Gemini is a lower-activity sector... then again in wcu the militia has wc1 confed fighters

I don't have any objections either way tho.

IRL, how old are military jets? I do know that some passenger liners are 30+ years old and the b-52 is around 50 years old...

Wendy · Post by **Wendy** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:17 am

blue_paladin42 wrote:I actually have a problem with PR being so late in the war. And here is why. You see WCII ships, namely the Broadsword, and Spiritplumber mentioned a Sabre( bless its mechanical heart). Considering that WC III used some ships from WC armada, that leaves me to believe that most ships in WC III were not new, and that WCII ships were retired. So why would you see Broadswords In the last year or two of the war. Thats a BIG inconsisitency.I'd move PR back a couple years and to hell with canon. If Origins gonna make that big of a mistake, then they probably wouldn't care anyway

Sigh...more proof that Privateer was the redheaded stepchild of Origin.

The galaxy didn't come out as a ship until 2669.

so you have to watch what you're doing.

I read the printed book -- manual that came with the game -- for Privateer and in the book it states that the galaxy came out NEW in 2669, the continuity errors are really hard to fix looking at what is what and where.

You'll have technology that doesn't come about for several more years running around. From a canon standpoint, it rots, from a players standpoint, hey, I got me one of the prototypes.

AND, the Gemini sector is an outpost. It's the far-reaches of space. You have old technology at places like that. The newer stuff is in demand, so the outposts like Gemini tend to get leftovers and old technology.

Summat to think on.

W.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:45 am

how about we move Priv to just before the false peace and RF to just before the end of the war? The AWACS plot can go after the war since it's basically a mini border worlds rebellion and you get to pick sides in it, so we have a hook to WC4 without copying it.

Wendy · Post by **Wendy** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:48 am

spiritplumber wrote:how about we move Priv to just before the false peace and RF to just before the end of the war? The AWACS plot can go after the war since it's basically a mini border worlds rebellion and you get to pick sides in it, so we have a hook to WC4 without copying it.

Sounds good to me, Judge.

I keep seeing your signature file and have to wonder....

Y'know, after pinch-a-loaf gave me the boot, I refused to go back.

He didn't even have the courtesy to e-mail me to say you're out of here, or to explain myself. Said I had to apologise to him publicly. He's still waiting and I'm not booted anymore, but I'll be darned if I'll voice a thing over there. Wonder why you even bother with it.

W.

blue_paladin42 · Post by **blue_paladin42** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:18 pm

God Im glad I found the Vegastrike forums first. I wonder how LOAF sits down with that stick is his rear. Anyway, sounds like you got a good resolution to the continuity errors of Origin. Who woud have though, in the WC universe, you have more to worry about from plot holes than black holes. Ok bad pun. Reasons for the broadswords existance seem plausible too. Although, mabye a thundercat VI or two wouldn't be out of the question either. Like I said, the fighters on the Victory weren't exactly new.

Hyena · Post by **Hyena** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:20 pm

spiritplumber wrote:I guess that the Gemini Broadswords ended up there because Gemini is a lower-activity sector... then again in wcu the militia has wc1 confed fighters

I don't have any objections either way tho.

IRL, how old are military jets? I do know that some passenger liners are 30+ years old and the b-52 is around 50 years old...

F-4 Phantom, various marks: Vietnam Era, out of US service, heavily exported.
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Scimitar, Hornet, Mk 1 Hellcat, Mk 1 Arrow

F-16, various marks: Post Vietnam, numerous upgrades to extend life. Some exportation.
WC Analogs in 2998-9: Hellcat, Arrow, both in various marks

F-14: Post Vietnam, near end of life
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Possibly Thunderbolt?

Mig-29: Common OpFor interceptor. Early 80's design, heavily updated. Heavily Exported
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Salthi

Su-27/33/35 Flanker: Common OpFor Heavy Fighter. 80's design, heavily updated. Exported.
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Dralthi, Gothri

B-52, all marks: Vietnam era bomber. Numerous upgrades to extend life.
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Broadsword.

B-1B: Modern tactical bomber
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Longbow

B-2: Advanced Tactical/Strategic bomber
WC Analogs in 2668-9: Strakha Bomber, Excalibur (bomber configuration) EDIT: Black Lance Dragon?

Thats the most I can think of right now.

Hyena · Post by **Hyena** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:22 pm

DELETED.

Wendy · Post by **Wendy** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:01 pm

B-52 I THINK goes as far back as Korea.

F-14 is STILL a viable airframe and STILL one of the best fighters going, but they want something newer than 30 or 40 years old. Or is it 50? Need to ask Darling Husband... He's a military buff...even knows where old Decommissioned ships were sold and when.

<shakes head> Like I have room to complain...I play games, he tracks militaria.

I liken the broadsword to the A-10 warthog...LOW AND SLOW, but with teeth. And yes, it's still in use.

W.

Hyena · Post by **Hyena** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:14 pm

Broadsword is probably more comperable to an A-10, as well as an A-1 Sandy: Both of them, no matter how hard they tried, could be retired. The only thing that killed the A-1, in fact, was the introduction of the attack helicopter.

EDIT: Actually, I think the B-52 was JUST coming into play in Korea, if it didn't miss it by the skin of it's teeth. As for the F-14: I dont want to start that argument here.

spiritplumber · Post by **spiritplumber** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:25 pm

I really like the look of the Warthog... I have no clue about its specifics, but it just looks badass.

So it's well estabilished that yes, we can have many generations of planes coexisting

The main reason why we don't see any earlier fighters in wc3 (other than arrow and dralthi) is probably that at the time, the more complex WC2 shapes wouldn't be handleable by the engine running on a good computer at the time (early pentiums - late 486s). WC3 and 4 fighters, esp. the former, are a lot blockier -- and don't get me started on capships. By the time Prophecy comes around we see more rounded shapes.

So let's not worry too much about it

by the way, ever seen http://www.luft46.com/ ?