speicies and visual ranges

The most appropriate place for Questions, Queries, and Quandaries regarding the nature of the Vega Strike universe and its past, present, or future history. Home to the occasional unfortunate RetCon.
Oblivion
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Post by Oblivion »

Crafting messages is important, if you want to get a message of diplomacy across the small gap of being totally different from each other :D . The teachers were not irresponsible by gambling our world.. we have already advertised the presence of our world with all the radio signals we've been sending out into space. Our TV, our radio, etc. What's wrong with mixing a message that could potentially be understood by another race? (BTW: There are very interesting ways of creating understanding between species in Sagan's Contact...) It's like sending spam to somebody and then mixing a letter of apology and greeting along with it, hoping to hell that he'd find it among the junk. :)

8) At the risk of sounding like a sci-fi fanatic (which I desperately try to hide behind false ears :lol: ), have you read "The Forge Of God", forgot the author, I think it was a Jeff Graw or something... apologies.

That book had a strange explanation for the silence of civilizations.

Here's the gist:
"A child that cries alone in the forest, unaware that he draws not help but wolves"

:twisted: get it?

In the book, the humans were decieved, invaded and Earth eventually destroyed by the Von Neumann (self-replicating) weapons of another civilization. These weapons were not directly controlled by their creators and were, in a sense - planet-eaters. They prowl space, find any hint of another emerging civilization and then destroy it.

The motives of the creators of the planet-eaters were not that clearly stated. But it was implied that they may have the same fears of invasion and competition from another civ like we do (like our own dearest Aerans of Vega Strike). So we've been sending radio signals (with or without purposes of communication with ETs) for what... 50 years... maybe it'll take a few more decades to reach the nearest star with those kind of civ-killers... and then they'll come screaming down on us... to silence the infant that might become Hercules someday.

@DancesWithProtons : Personally, I don't think aliens would get the same idea of noninterference that the Star Trekkers did. :) Nitpicking on the UFO: Why are all UFO pics grainy, blurry, or just plain incomprehensible?

And things that might support the UFO theory: A lot of human civs have origin tales of having been flown from another place by a "thunderbird". In some filipino tribes it's a giant bird called "Garuda". It has different names in different lands (ask someone with American Indian ancestry). It may be evidence of a spaceship redistributing human population. But I doubt it, :)

Just like why all civilizations have tales of the great flood, and yet no geological evidence that it occured...

The mysteries of the world.... :wink:
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Our normal radio transmissions dissipate very quickly, the ones sent using radiotelescopes were very narrow beams, very powerful. The kind of transmissions our SETI@Home would detect if they were beamed at us.
BIG difference.

@Halleck:
Still... where are you getting your "numbers" from? We know so damn little about what kind of other life there might be... saying that there is a 50/50 chance of them being hostile is just silly. Who knows if they will even care? Who knows if they will be capable of caring? Who knows if they can even percieve us, and if we can percieve them?

I think most of the speculation (and debate) about this is futile. I can't prove to you that intelligent life exists and you can't prove to me that it doesn't. Still... the thought of being the only intelligent beings in the galaxy seems awful geocentric to me. Just because we haven't found any yet doesn't mean we never will. Maybe we're not looking in the right places... or in the right way. And I think it's pretty clear that they're not trying to get our attention. Maybe they share your fears. Razz
I totally agree, we know nothing. But that's why it's irresponsible to DO something about it, like transmit signals out. Listening, there can be no harm. But you don't take a chance on something on the argument that you don't know that there may be danger there, do you? Rather, you wait until you know there isn't. Or like the explorers of the new world took a chance on themselves. Like I said, I believe there's no one out there and that those transmissions are power wasted on entertainment, but what if there is a more advanced civilization out there, and happen to be looking at expanding? My argument is NOT about what the chances are of this or that, but rather, does a stupid teacher somewhere have the right to put all of humanity at risk, just to entertain his stupid classroom?

@Oblivion:
"Diplomacy" is something you do to avoid a war, when things are hot, and while you still can. Best way to avoid a war is not to bring a bad situation upon yourself in the first place. We've been happily alone on this planet for 3 billion years; no need for diplomacy, unless our "beamed out diplomacy" changes that.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. It just seems to me that most people who say they believe there's intelligent life out there don't really believe so; in fact, do so much less (give it less chances) than those who, like me, profess skepticism, but at least give it a chance in 1000...
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Post by Sunfire »

what if the queen of every ant colony in the world wonders *why* those infernal bipedial beasts wont talk back to them...

as far as communication with ailens goes, we cant even communicate with non-sentient lifeforms on our own planet... we hear birds singing, but how many research projects are there following the calls of the mockingbird and coming up with a universal translator to figure out what they mean? there are a few projects that deal with whales and porpouses but even then we dont even have a basic knowledge of what they are communicating

the only thing we do know is that animals *do* communicate... 100 years ago the educated community didnt even think that...

im of the opinion that *if* there are sentient aliens out there, they are either too far advanced to communicate with us, too different from out phisiology, too far away to interact or we are simply too backwards technologically to merit a second glance... the universe is BILLIONS of years old and yet we have havent even had the printing press for 500 years....

we could also be the galaxy's equivalant to a petri dish... (lets see what happens when we let sentient life arise on a planet with no outside contact...)

as far as the threads topic, i would think that the aera could see much the same wavelengths as us (and probably ir or uv as well since they grew up in such a hostile environment) the rlaan i would think would probably see less of our visible spectrum and something more suited to their environment...

@chuck: i too loved the ailen loving hippies getting fried :twisted:

and i would also agree that at our development level in our local galactic neighborhood, so far we are unique. but for that matter, the duckbilled platypus is pretty unique too... :D
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Post by Oblivion »

:roll:
What do you mean not communicate?
I sent a message to an ant yesterday.

It was a warning.
I said:
"DON'T YOU DARE DRINK FROM MY CAFE AU LAIT!"
and he replied:
(in sign language):
EAT YOU

..and he bit me..

so started the war that ended in a tragedy.
the corpse of the valiant ant is now a memorial to the vagaries of communication... :lol:
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Are you sure it was a "he" ant? Those have wings, and after sleeping with their beloved princess, fly away to die; they don't drink cafe au lait :D
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Post by Sunfire »

roflmao! @oblivion ....wow...

@chuck... too true... im pretty sure all insect hives are composed of sterile females... the guys get to be fed their whole life but only one out of thousands get to mate... if they mate they die... if they dont mate, the hive kills them... kinda sucks...
i wonder if that could be used for the hive minded fiction... all sterile female drones....
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Post by Oblivion »

:cry: Sorry. I was too choked up with tears when I wrote that. Couldn't see the "S".

And yeah I probably know more about ants than both of you. I once got deeeeeeply interested in ant farms. lol :D PLUS I had 3 years of biology. :)

The guys actually don't get fed much. After maturity, they leave in swarms to mate with the queens. And then crawl up to die somewhere, as their mouthparts are not enough for them to eat food on their own.

Female workers sometimes do lay eggs. The Bulldog Ants of Australia (hi Zeog!), which are primitive ants, all lay eggs sometimes.

And Chuck! You didn't see this ant! He was crazed at the smell of coffee! He practically bit a follicle off my thumb!!!! :shock:
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Post by Sunfire »

Oblivion wrote: And yeah I probably know more about ants than both of you.
most likely... im far more well versed in bees than i am in ants... kept bee hives for about 10 years... did you know that different hives have different personalities? the queen kinda sets the mood around the house so to speak...
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Post by Oblivion »

Same as ants. Ant workers would sometimes rise up in revolution and insist that their queen move to new palace headquarters, much like how bees swarm. :) Ants are more interesting, tho less rewarding - there are slaver ants, parasite ants, small communities, vast multiple queen communities, Queen assassin and replacer (There are those in bees too right? The ones who take over a colony?), farmers, etc!

Never did get a working ant farm set up though. :)
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Post by Zeog »

Oblivion wrote:The Bulldog Ants of Australia (hi Zeog!), which are ...
Uh, erm... hi!
I don't quite understand...
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I think he meant New Zeland grasshoppers and Kagaroo22, though I think Kanga is from Eastern Europe. There's someone from Australia around here, though; was that Dandandaman? Well, if chickens lay infertile eggs, why not insects?
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Post by Kangaroo »

:shock: :shock: :shock: Our wood ants are protected with law...
chuck_starchaser wrote:though I think Kanga is from Eastern Europe.
You got that right, I'm not from Australia.

Won't tell why I name myself like that :roll:
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Post by Sunfire »

Oblivion wrote:Same as ants. Ant workers would sometimes rise up in revolution and insist that their queen move to new palace headquarters, much like how bees swarm. :) Ants are more interesting, tho less rewarding - there are slaver ants, parasite ants, small communities, vast multiple queen communities, Queen assassin and replacer (There are those in bees too right? The ones who take over a colony?), farmers, etc!

Never did get a working ant farm set up though. :)
bees swarm usually for one reason, theres a new queen in the hive. basically, the workers feed the larve a special kind of food called 'royal jelly' and a new queen is born (thats it, all they do is change what they feed the normal worker bee larvae, and poof! transmographication! :) ) tho its not generally understood who makes the decsicion for a new queen, but i think the consensus is the queen herself!

so, once the new queen reaches maturity, 9 times out of 10, the OLD queen flys away, and a crapload of bees fly with her (producing the swarm) the queen lands somewhere, and all the worker bees land on top of her (thats how you see the pictures of ppl with 'bee-beards' and whatnot)

with domesticated bees, there is only one queen per hive... period... if the queen dies, the hive dies. mainly because one worker bee will assume the role of queen, but since it cant lay eggs, they cant start a new queen from scratch.

but no, there are no bee cloaking devices which allow the assassan bee from the warring hive to sneak in undetected and KILL :P

again, i think this talk about hives could be incorporated into the 'hive-minded' faction (not sure who that its at the moment, but the luddites seen to not like them in their splash screen) oh.. and bees see UV...
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Post by Oblivion »

Zeog:
Oblivion wrote:
The Bulldog Ants of Australia (hi Zeog!), which are ...
Uh, erm... hi!
I don't quite understand...
Sorry, I confused you with Zaydana. :) Both Z's.

Chuck:
New Zeland grasshoppers and Kagaroo22
Nope. I know about those large nocturnal grasshoppers too. ;) I meant bulldog ants. Am not sure if they are ponerines. And never said Kanga was an aussie. ;)
but no, there are no bee cloaking devices which allow the assassan bee from the warring hive to sneak in undetected and KILL
You sure? I did not mean assassinate. :) A parasite queens who enter a colony and live near(or lick??) the queen to get her smell then kills her. I've read about that somewhere.
again, i think this talk about hives could be incorporated into the 'hive-minded' faction (not sure who that its at the moment, but the luddites seen to not like them in their splash screen) oh.. and bees see UV...
Yup I know they see UV. Flowers that look otherwise plain to us have patterns that are visible to the bees, not to humans.

And the "hive-minded" faction you refer to are the andolians. And they are not "hive-minded" at all. Just "connected". They are pretty much independent of each other. Gets confusing though. :D
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I suspect we see UV also, and that the fact somehow has eluded scientific scrutiny; or perhaps is known but not popularly so. But the fact is when we look at a flower, typically we see an intensity of color that we simply can't render, whether on canvas or screen. Even if you bring flowers indoors, under artificial lighting... If you're trying to render colors accurately you can place the thing you're modelling on top of the screen and compare colors and adjust; but trying to get the color of a flower represented, it's like a whole color dimension is missing. I find, anyways.
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Post by loki1950 »

Most avians also see UV.

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Post by Zeog »

That's not because of missing UV but due to the very limited color space of monitors and printers. The human eye can distiguish much more shades of green than a monitor or a print will every be able to show.
If you've ever looked at spectral colors, sunlight through prism for example, and marveled at their clarity and pureness you'll confirm that a screen, painting or print looks very dull indeed. This is what you experience I think.

See this pictures (colors are not realistic):
Spectral colors align at the outside curved site. The black body color curve (not shown) is a line that starts in the red corner and bends through the orange and yellow part until the white region (for very hight and up to infinite temperatures.)
Image
Color Space Fundamentals
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Post by Halleck »

Ohh right... isn't that why some 3-CCD cameras can get improved image quality by focusing more detail onto the green CCD? I think that's called pixel shift.
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Post by Sunfire »

@chuck
i could swear i see UV in some flowers... but only barely (purple morning glories for example and also some very rich red flowers) its this ephemerial ultra purpleness that is very hard to explain.... i also see it in inside ultra bright rainbows... (could all be psychological and im just imagining it tho too... :D )

does HDTV take into account for the missing spectral range?
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Post by Halleck »

Sunfire wrote:does HDTV take into account for the missing spectral range?
I don't think so. It might be able to make use of greater concentration on green colorspace as I mentioned before, but I don't think we have any methods of accurately reproducing all visible colors on a monitor.
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Post by Zeog »

Sunfire wrote:@chuck
i could swear i see UV in some flowers... but only barely (purple morning glories for example and also some very rich red flowers) its this ephemerial ultra purpleness that is very hard to explain.... i also see it in inside ultra bright rainbows... (could all be psychological and im just imagining it tho too... :D )
How do you know it's UV and not just another intense spectral color?
In your retina you have three different types of color receptors called "cones". This is their senitivity
Image
with UV being at wavelengths below 400 nm.
Overall sensitivity:
Image
(Pictures are taken from photo.net)

On current displays there are just three colors. A mixture of them makes the impression of white to the human brain. A better display technology (HDTV is not!) with three colors would just make a bigger triangle in the picture of my last post and would therefore not be able to produce spectral colors, as well.
HDTV just uses a better spacial resolution than PAL or SECAM which is not even as good as most resolutions on a PC, by the way!

But there is an interesting development for ultra high contrast displays that are almost able to display HDR-Images!
http://www.brightsidetech.com/products/dr37p.php
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Post by Oblivion »

heehe. that's research.

Here's a thought. Haven't anyone of you thought that maybe we don't see the same colors at all? What I may call as Blue may still be called blue by you, but is actually what is red to my vision. That was confusing. :?
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Post by Zeog »

Oblivion wrote:Haven't anyone of you thought that maybe we don't see the same colors at all? What I may call as Blue may still be called blue by you, but is actually what is red to my vision.
Yes! Actually everybody has the same favourite color, they just perceive / call it differently! LOL :P
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Post by Halleck »

Yes, that has occured to me...
maybe that's why some people have such awful sense in colors! :P
(Reminds me of my old neighbors who painted their house mint green.)
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Post by Oblivion »

The sixteenth sense:

I see RED people! :P
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