Elite Strike pre-release patch!

[chuck_starchaser]

Done!



8.2 kilo-tris.

The file:
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/FFE/LRC/LRC.zip

[Halleck]

Looks good, although I'm surprised you didn't do more blocks of rectangular greebles. (The original model was practically coated with them on the top and bottom.)

EDIT: I just remembered that I have a great art style reference pic (drawn by Arne.) Here it is:


I would love for Elite Strike to eventually resemble something akin to this painting in terms of color and model/texture complexity.

[chuck_starchaser]

Looks good, although I'm surprised you didn't do more blocks of rectangular greebles. (The original model was practically coated with them on the top and bottom.)

Yeah, it's always either too much or too little...

Here's the HiTek WIP, which will be my last contribution:

[Halleck]

Very nice!

May I ask why this is definitely your last contribution? Too much other stuff going on?

[chuck_starchaser]

Well, what I'm interested in is realism, in graphics as well everything else, as you well know. Having to hold myself back from greebling stations takes a lot of the fun out of modelling for me; and I don't want to intrude in your artistic descisions but then again, I couldn't not. Cartoons do nothing for me; and and I don't even understand what you mean in that post, but I fear I'm wasting effort. Best thing for me is to start my own mod, like you said; and CoffeeBot wants to, and he's all for realism. Just at brainstorming stage, for now.

So, the HiTek station is done. Here's the comparison shot:



Here's the file:
http://www.deeplayer.com/dan_w/FFE/HiTe ... TekStn.zip
It includes an LOD.
The full thing is only 2856 tris, as I didn't greeble it at all.
The LOD, if you need it, is 608 tris.

And here's what it looks from the front coming in, with the sun below, a bright green planet to the right, and a bright red moon to the left ...:



Enjoy it, and good luck with Elite Strike. Can't wait till the next release

Ryder, if you're gonna texture this one, make sure to keep the smoothing groups as they are. I made some facets of a darker material; hope they help as a texturing guide.

[Halleck]

Looks great!

Thanks again for all your hard work, chuck. I understand that our current visions differ somewhat, but this may not always be the case.

If the art style of Elite Strike ends up steering more towards your realm, I'll be sure to let you know. You will always be welcomed here.

[chuck_starchaser]

Thanks. I'm working on a cargo ship for my mod, right now; with full interior. I'll post shots to the arts forum once it takes more definite shape.

[Halleck]

Well then, best of luck with your mod. I know you'll enjoy having total creative control.

[klauss]

@halleck:
Not worth a thread, try this:

Code: Select all

<section name="graphics">
...
   <section name="hud">
   ...
   <var name="radarType" value="Elite"/>
   ...
   </section>
...
</section>

I don't know how well it works... but sounds promising.

[Halleck]

Interesting!

This is broken, but at least halfway there. Currently, it's nearly perfect when you are close to an object.


As you get further and further out, the object creeps towards the edge of the radar...


But it doesn't stop there. Eventually radar targets show up all over the place with no clipping control whatsoever.


Do you think you can fix it?

[drvoke]

I think the wiki states that the Elite radar feature is broken. But I have a more general question about this.. How is the radar itself drawn? It looks to me as though it's drawn using 3D lines(but what do I know?).. Is there something in one of the python scripts that would allow you to tilt it away from you so it sits more parallel than perpendicular to your line of sight, like in Elite?

[Halleck]

I'm not sure, but I would guess that the radar functions are hard-coded.

Back on the topic of artstyle again: I've talked this over with Nozmajner, and even he is in favor of realism and high levels of detail.

So here is an idea we had. Allow the user to pick between two different levels of detail. One detail setting would use top-level LODs and high quality textures. Ships would look more like JAELC, hopefully. Cool, slick, realistic, futuristic.

The other set would force use of medium-level LODs, and use textures made by me (as nearly all of the current ones are.) It would be more like arne's painting that I posted earlier... low-poly charm at its finest, like only Elite can deliver.

I don't know the details of forcing a model to use one set of textures or the other,but I'm pretty sure it can be done (like for the special homeland-security textures.)

I think that concurrent art development like that might just work. Artists would be able to work without detail limits, and users interested in a high-detail universe could revel in its full glory. Then, I would maintain my own art branch for simpler folk such as myself.

So, does that sound reasonable?

[drvoke]

Not that it matters, but I like that idea. Go for it, I say! Low poly counts FTW!

[Halleck]

Not that it matters, but I like that idea. Go for it, I say! Low poly counts FTW!

Glad to see I'm not alone.

[Zeog]

I don't know the details of forcing a model to use one set of textures or the other,but I'm pretty sure it can be done (like for the special homeland-security textures.)

I think it's as easy as setting a different directory path for meshes and textures when configuring your game. Make a high detailed and a low detailed file with the same name in two different directories meshesHigh and meshesLow etc. and you can leave filenames in the masterpartslist (or whereever) unchanged.
The paths for meshes etc. should be changeable in vegastrike.config, if I recall correctly.

[chuck_starchaser]

Back on the topic of artstyle again: I've talked this over with Nozmajner, and even he is in favor of realism and high levels of detail.

So here is an idea we had. Allow the user to pick between two different levels of detail. One detail setting would use top-level LODs and high quality textures. Ships would look more like JAELC, hopefully. Cool, slick, realistic, futuristic.

The other set would force use of medium-level LODs, and use textures made by me (as nearly all of the current ones are.) It would be more like arne's painting that I posted earlier... low-poly charm at its finest, like only Elite can deliver.

I have another suggestion. Let me first make a subtle distinction: High poly count and high detail aren't the same thing. A ship can be high poly count (say 10 k tris for a fighter), and yet be smooth and have very few distinct features; --the high number of vertexes being used to make its surface really smooth. For ships that must enter atmospheres, this would be an aerodynamic requirement, anyhow. And, personally, I like to see curved surfaces having enough polys that you can't see individual polys no matter how hard you look. Texturing should reflect the smoothness of the surface by having a solid color or justabouts.
On the other hand, large ships that aren't atmosphere capable, and space stations, should be highly detailed, as well as high-poly; IOW, be all greebled up. This jives well with the idea that, if an absolute minimum detail size were decided, and assuming similar greeble density, the amount of such detail would increase with the surface area of an object. This may be too much work and too high a poly count for large objects, but large objects would include some larger greebles, so maybe we have a sizable O log a, where a is surface area, term, anyhow; but you get the idea.

So, to put a picture to it: You wouldn't need two sets. Your average fighters would be simple and dreamy as you like them, but at the same time high poly count and ultra-smooth, so still look realistic the way I, for one, like. No conflict.
And when you approach a space station you see tons of little details on it, giving you a better sense of its huge size.

[Halleck]

As you say, detail and polycount are different issues. Detail also includes texturing.

In the "simple" art style, the station wouldn't have detailed textures or greebles. Low poly counts are not a neccessity (for instance, your "NDD" station fits perfectly) but I'm not averse to low poly counts. They are part of the original ship designs.

I also think that for the "complex" art style, simple and block-colored ships would be ill-fitting. Look at the JAELC ships I linked to.. the level of detail in the texture (less so in the model itself) would fit in much better with the detailed and realistic station textures.

I guess I just can't see these two styles co-existing well... like flying a cartoonish ship in a photorealistic world.

[chuck_starchaser]

No, I know you're not averse to low poly counts. I'm the one who's averse to them, but I was trying to find out if this wasn't just a confusion of terms, but I still don't have an answer to that. Let me try and explain what I was trying to say:

You said you'd like a dreamy kind of atmosphere, with solid colors. What I was trying to point out is that this is not averse to realism. Low poly counts would be. You could have very smooth and simple-looking ships with solid colors and, through high poly --very smooth-- meshes and perhaps "solid" textures that include radiosity baking and special shaders, such as anisotropic reflectivity, they'd look very dreamy and simple but very realistic at the same time. Say, when you're looking at a brand new Porsche, or Ferrari or Lamborghini you see fewer greebles or details than if you're looking at a banged up, rusty Rolls Royce, but in all cases you know if you're looking at a painting or at a photograph. I'd be very happy if when you're looking at a ship it feels like you're looking at it in real life; photographic-like. It DOESN'T need a lot of details for that. A ship could have few details to look at in real life; and it could be painted with a solid color, just like Porsches are. For me, it JUST has to look "real", photographic, which implies high poly count, radiosity baking, etc; but could be very simple and solid color and dreamy, iridescent, whatever. Low poly count, on the other hand, would make it look UN-real, because very few ships would actually be polygonal (with the notable exception of the Stealth Fighter). You understand what I mean? So, my question to you is does your taste require low poly count, with their consequent polygonal and unreal looks?, or is low amounts of greebles and details enough for you?

That's as far as fighters and atmo-capable ships.

For stations, my vision would be the same: realism; but that implies greebles, for me, that would help tell their size. Now, that doesn't necessarily imply greebles like the ones I put in the wheel station. The reason I put those structures on the inside walls was two-fold: First, the fact that the texture in the original seemed to imply structures. Second, the fact that a spinning station like that lends itself to be fitted with extra buildings, as the economic reality of growth and limited budgets might cause a lot of overcrowding, and eventually some of the corporations renting space in the station figure out that some non-pressure essential things could be stored on the outside of the station and put into precariously built warehouses and whatnot. In any case, my purpose of realism would better be served, actually, by much smaller greebles, --such as being able to see individual bolts, nuts, rivets, seams between metal panels, etc. as you get really close to the station. So, I wouldn't be averse to simpler looking stations at a distance, in fact; as long as it looks real, particularly when you get close.

I might add, if you drive a Porsche into a greebly parking lot it doesn't feel like your Porsche is any less real, does it? So, there's no reason why flying a simple-looking ship into a greebly space station should cause any perceptual clash, as long as they are both high poly count (NOT both "highly detailed").

[Halleck]

Okay, I see your point. An UNrealistic ship flying into a realistic station would look poor, as I was fearing. A realistic but simple ship flying into a realistic station would not.

To answer the poly question: I'm not averse to high polycounts in and of themselves, but I would like all the ships from the original elite to retain the same form. So, if you care to model them all like stealth fighters, polygons become plates of armor, which lend themselves to detailing.

I think this style of art would work, as long as somebody is willing to model ships like that. As things are, I'm fine with the low-poly dataset (Especially because it's so easy to maintain, UV, and so forth.) I'm satisfied with the style and polycounts of current ships, but I would be open to new ships that have higher polycounts as long as they appeal to my asthetic.

[chuck_starchaser]

Okay, good; we seem to be pretty close in taste, actually, I like simple ships too, in the sense that if they are atmospheric capable they need to be aerodynamic. I just hate to be able to see polygons on a surface that's obviously supposed to be continuously curved.

I was going to mention, the ship you showed me...



... isn't too low poly; is it? Looks smoother than the original, to me. In similar fashion, if I was making it, I'd try to make it smoother still, like quadruple the poly count, without adding any details or greebles to it, --except perhaps in the landing gear as it folds out... Like those straight edges you see around the cockpit, I'd have a very smoothly rounded line, for example.

[Halleck]

Indeed. You may notice that I am mostly talking about the "original" elite ships, i.e. the ones that were in pre-frontier elite games. I'm much more lenient on Frontier and FFE ships/stations because those games were trying to approximate a realistic look with the technology that was avaialble. The classic elites, however, were not.

[chuck_starchaser]

Allright, anything you need for FFE let me know; I'll be doing some stuff for wcu too, though, now that Spirit is back. She needs some cockpits I hear.

[drvoke]

In regards to the fantasy/cartoony vision shown by the artists rendition.. Do you think ES might take advantage of cel shading once the Ogre port comes around? That could be made to look nice with lower poly models, I think?

[Halleck]

Perhaps. We'll have to wait and see.

[chuck_starchaser]

If you still remember about my beehive texture I suggested for the outside of the wheel station. Well, I was just googling around for radiators in space and found this pic of the inside of the shuttle's doors, where its rads are. Lo and behold, they are goldish (yellow specular color) or copperish (red specular), or rather something inbetween (orange specular?). Here's the pic:
http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/NEWSROOM/news/ ... pd1366.jpg