when it comes to a space sim that can be modded like you can add your own ships, structured etc.. everyone wants to add either starwars, babylon 5 or even startrek like models into moddable space sims. thats normal for the developers..
so am I the only one that like to come up with original ideas when it comes to modding space sims?
not to complain but theres like at least a couple of starwars mod for different space sims.
im pretty sure you have no problems with pre made models in moddable space sims like this one but heck! its just me.
problems with moddable space sims these days are...
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Claymore
- Star Pilot
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:34 pm
- Location: Sweden
I guess the simple fact is that the universes you mention have a large fanbase, so I guess it's easier for someone who starts working on a mod based on a popular universe will have easier to find other people who are willing to work on it, and also that it's easier to reach an audience of fans. So I guess my theory is that a "replicated" universe is liklier to survive than a completly new one.
But if you have solid ideas and the time for it, why not write down a backstory, some scenarios and so on, start a project on Sourceforge for a VS-mod and wait and see if some skilled people tag along?
But if you have solid ideas and the time for it, why not write down a backstory, some scenarios and so on, start a project on Sourceforge for a VS-mod and wait and see if some skilled people tag along?
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Jimmy Hendrix
interesting topic
This is a really interesting topic... There are games like VegaStrike and Starshatter which have their own unique storlines and universes (well, at least under development) in addition to being very modable. And there are other sims with unique universes which aren't that modable at all, and there are yet other sims based on popular scifi shows/movies which aren't modable either.
I guess ever since people started writing their own Doom2 maps, mapping, skinning, mod'ing, total conversions, etc have become very popular. Mod's like Counter Strike have shown that a killer mod can bring new life to an already great game. Tribes 1 is one of my favorite games ever and the mods that came out for it were in most cases, better than the original game.
Indeed, the best mods seem to be either totally unique or improvements upon an already unique and good game. The mods which try to re-create some other universe don't do nearly as well. Perhaps the reason for this is that the people who are likely to write a unique mod (or to improve an already unique mod or total conversion) tend to be more creative and less willing to work on an recreating an old idea. Opinions?
I guess ever since people started writing their own Doom2 maps, mapping, skinning, mod'ing, total conversions, etc have become very popular. Mod's like Counter Strike have shown that a killer mod can bring new life to an already great game. Tribes 1 is one of my favorite games ever and the mods that came out for it were in most cases, better than the original game.
Indeed, the best mods seem to be either totally unique or improvements upon an already unique and good game. The mods which try to re-create some other universe don't do nearly as well. Perhaps the reason for this is that the people who are likely to write a unique mod (or to improve an already unique mod or total conversion) tend to be more creative and less willing to work on an recreating an old idea. Opinions?
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Jimmy Hendrix
or to put it another way...
to put it another way... perhaps their creativity takes a back seat to their obsession to mimick their favorite series to the letter. So instead of improving gameplay, they spend that extra time trying to get that photon torpedo to launch out the correct coordinates on the model where the torpedo tube would be.
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peteyg
- Elite
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It's my time, I'll waste it as I see fit.
Working on my Trek mod is personally a lot of fun for me. It's also been kind of a testing ground for concepts and new features that will be incorporated into the main Vega Strike game.
I think that Vega Strike opens up possiblities never before realized in a Star Trek game. Privateer meets Star Trek?! It's never been done before!!!!
Until now.
Working on my Trek mod is personally a lot of fun for me. It's also been kind of a testing ground for concepts and new features that will be incorporated into the main Vega Strike game.
I think that Vega Strike opens up possiblities never before realized in a Star Trek game. Privateer meets Star Trek?! It's never been done before!!!!
Until now.
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V4X3N Being Lazy
Cultural Sterility
I think a large amount of the problem is the heavy dominance of the non-interactive media available, such as television and movies. Even with books, you are forced to imagine your own images, and they are very good at leading you to your own trains of thought, but television is practically a zombification device.
Some research into modern TV watching habits indicate that people are increasingly leaving the television on at all times, even while actively participating in other activities. The analysis has hypothesized that in this case, television is being used to supply, "imaginative vision," or in short replace someone's imagination. It would seem that this phenomenon you speak of could be contributory support for this hypothesis.
I advocate removing televisions, or limiting their operation to less than two hours in a given 24 hour period, during which you must actively watch the content and programming. Allowing these images to be placed into the back of your mind by inactive watching, is credited as the cause of such disturbing brainwashing under this hypothesis.
I reserve the right to ignore anyone telling me I'm a raging loony, as I expect anyone who disagrees with this hypothesis to not follow my suggested course of treatment/prevention.
Some research into modern TV watching habits indicate that people are increasingly leaving the television on at all times, even while actively participating in other activities. The analysis has hypothesized that in this case, television is being used to supply, "imaginative vision," or in short replace someone's imagination. It would seem that this phenomenon you speak of could be contributory support for this hypothesis.
I advocate removing televisions, or limiting their operation to less than two hours in a given 24 hour period, during which you must actively watch the content and programming. Allowing these images to be placed into the back of your mind by inactive watching, is credited as the cause of such disturbing brainwashing under this hypothesis.
I reserve the right to ignore anyone telling me I'm a raging loony, as I expect anyone who disagrees with this hypothesis to not follow my suggested course of treatment/prevention.
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hellcatv
- Developer
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Well I have to wack my television to get it to work--and I figure that won't work one of these days, so I limit my TV hours to national emergencies and rely on the web for interactive content
course when I go home I occasionally nab an old Star Trek tape and pop 'er in.
so what does that mean?
that means that I'm really happy hte main VS universe is original
and I'm very excited that someone is making a trek mod *G*
...
but you know what...I would simply LOVE to have someone make an original mod as well...especially if they are a talented artist/modder and can build a following...
so any way I can help you please let me know--post to the forum, to the wiki, and write me mails as well... specially private ones on the forum--I check those often.
Good luck and let us know how your universe develops...I've always been encouraging people who have original universes to bring them to VS...but usually they mention some feature that VS already has as being unique and say they'll get their own engine that can do it, and I never hear from them or see their mod again.
anyhow I'm at your service if you have a concrete idea for a mod and are willing to start with it *G*
course when I go home I occasionally nab an old Star Trek tape and pop 'er in.
so what does that mean?
that means that I'm really happy hte main VS universe is original
and I'm very excited that someone is making a trek mod *G*
...
but you know what...I would simply LOVE to have someone make an original mod as well...especially if they are a talented artist/modder and can build a following...
so any way I can help you please let me know--post to the forum, to the wiki, and write me mails as well... specially private ones on the forum--I check those often.
Good luck and let us know how your universe develops...I've always been encouraging people who have original universes to bring them to VS...but usually they mention some feature that VS already has as being unique and say they'll get their own engine that can do it, and I never hear from them or see their mod again.
anyhow I'm at your service if you have a concrete idea for a mod and are willing to start with it *G*
Vega Strike Lead Developer
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
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FireHawk
well unfountely VegaStrike is still limited...and alot of mod Ideas wont work.
SOmething that people havent tried before very much is Robotech Morphing game...where each SpaeCraft ETC has 2-3 diffrent mods.
Eg
Terran Light Fighter
Modes
1 Scoutmode(very fast very agile)
2 Fighter Mode (slower less menuverable but has more power diverted to guns and sensitive areas are covered with the engines that aint being used so they take the first damage and dont reduce performance of the craft)
Unfountely Vegastrike doesnt support any kind movement system for Meshes or vertcies at this time.
I suggest everyone downloading Macross Zero first Episode...VERY VERY good
a Game made like the fighting in that and it would be a instant hit.
SOmething that people havent tried before very much is Robotech Morphing game...where each SpaeCraft ETC has 2-3 diffrent mods.
Eg
Terran Light Fighter
Modes
1 Scoutmode(very fast very agile)
2 Fighter Mode (slower less menuverable but has more power diverted to guns and sensitive areas are covered with the engines that aint being used so they take the first damage and dont reduce performance of the craft)
Unfountely Vegastrike doesnt support any kind movement system for Meshes or vertcies at this time.
I suggest everyone downloading Macross Zero first Episode...VERY VERY good
a Game made like the fighting in that and it would be a instant hit.
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V4X3N Being Lazy
Modding
Oh, I've got a few ideas for alternative futures/universes rattling around. If someone wanted one or two, I could give them a choice of outlines, and then flesh out the chosen candidate.
One of my funkier ideas is that the human race found no alternate races outside, but they created their own - sometimes by accident. All the machinery in this universe is varying forms of engineered bio-organisms and bio-systems, leaving metals relatively unused, except in specialty organs or chemicals within organisms.
The really nifty part about this universe is that what people are concerned over is DNA strings for interesting organs or spawn-organisms, and hiding their own genetic libraries from their competitors. People are themselves usually augmented with a variety of carefully chosen symbiotic microorganisms and mini-organisms, if not outright morphed and adapted into something not comforming to H.Sap specifications. This makes for a *very* unusual resource and maintenance system for pretty much everything. Also, there are many individuals who are over a millenium old and in great overall health wandering around, to add spice.
The difference between stations or capital ships and fighter ships in this case would be - aside from size - that capital ships would maintain interaction spaces within them (you wouldn't be wrapped in a flesh-cockpit, and there would be a bar to sit at), as well as considerable dead reserves of various materials and data (cargo areas).
The largest detail separating the different races from humanity and each other would be an evolutionary fork, into forms/function where they were no longer compatible with each other.
The largest problem in making a VS game around this universe is that ships would frequently alter themselves; they would vary with how much mass they gather or release, and what genetic codes were uploaded and active for each organ in a ship (modifiable in flight). Further, we would see things common on the microbiological level in the ship-size level: Instead of launching fighters, larger ships would fission off a bud with a control element (human pilot/crew) in it which would quickly assume the shape of a ship. Also, ships could fuse together to make larger ships at will.
I haven't the beginnings of an idea how you would handle ship-shape, functionality, and appearance in this system, and quail at the thought of ships regularly fusing and fissioning into subunits for tactical advantage in real-time: Static models by themselves would just not do. Perhaps a reserve of resizeable models for elements, which get dynamically swapped, morphed, and added to make the overall ship shapes being displayed, but....
Still, a story does not a mod make, as is plainly visible across the net. A story can make a mod or game *better,* but by itself a story is at best a novel.
One of my funkier ideas is that the human race found no alternate races outside, but they created their own - sometimes by accident. All the machinery in this universe is varying forms of engineered bio-organisms and bio-systems, leaving metals relatively unused, except in specialty organs or chemicals within organisms.
The really nifty part about this universe is that what people are concerned over is DNA strings for interesting organs or spawn-organisms, and hiding their own genetic libraries from their competitors. People are themselves usually augmented with a variety of carefully chosen symbiotic microorganisms and mini-organisms, if not outright morphed and adapted into something not comforming to H.Sap specifications. This makes for a *very* unusual resource and maintenance system for pretty much everything. Also, there are many individuals who are over a millenium old and in great overall health wandering around, to add spice.
The difference between stations or capital ships and fighter ships in this case would be - aside from size - that capital ships would maintain interaction spaces within them (you wouldn't be wrapped in a flesh-cockpit, and there would be a bar to sit at), as well as considerable dead reserves of various materials and data (cargo areas).
The largest detail separating the different races from humanity and each other would be an evolutionary fork, into forms/function where they were no longer compatible with each other.
The largest problem in making a VS game around this universe is that ships would frequently alter themselves; they would vary with how much mass they gather or release, and what genetic codes were uploaded and active for each organ in a ship (modifiable in flight). Further, we would see things common on the microbiological level in the ship-size level: Instead of launching fighters, larger ships would fission off a bud with a control element (human pilot/crew) in it which would quickly assume the shape of a ship. Also, ships could fuse together to make larger ships at will.
I haven't the beginnings of an idea how you would handle ship-shape, functionality, and appearance in this system, and quail at the thought of ships regularly fusing and fissioning into subunits for tactical advantage in real-time: Static models by themselves would just not do. Perhaps a reserve of resizeable models for elements, which get dynamically swapped, morphed, and added to make the overall ship shapes being displayed, but....
Still, a story does not a mod make, as is plainly visible across the net. A story can make a mod or game *better,* but by itself a story is at best a novel.
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KleiZwei
- Mercenary
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:16 pm
- Location: The Restaurant at the end of the Universe
well I prefer original models and have made 3 so far... (only 1 works in the game as yet). I haven't bothered putting textures on them, and 3rd one is complex in such a way that I'm having trouble doing the UV mapping.
The number one problem though is Wings3D crashes alot, causing me to reinstall... (just tedious)
Here's the images of them they're in Corel CPT format, so they might not show up..
The number one problem though is Wings3D crashes alot, causing me to reinstall... (just tedious)
Here's the images of them they're in Corel CPT format, so they might not show up..
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KleiZwei
- Mercenary
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hurleybird
- Elite
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hellcatv
- Developer
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usually the problem is that most artists don't take the time to texture them
and I've never heard of someone volunteering to texture someone else's unless the work is that of a favorite space opera (*cough star trek, wing commander *cough) ...
I suggest you read the texture howto and then post it to the model forum
good luck *G*
and I've never heard of someone volunteering to texture someone else's unless the work is that of a favorite space opera (*cough star trek, wing commander *cough) ...
I suggest you read the texture howto and then post it to the model forum
good luck *G*
Vega Strike Lead Developer
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
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KleiZwei
- Mercenary
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I read it, it's just a pain in the @$$ to hunt down every last face and asign it to a colour in the UV mapper, Texturing it after that point.... No Problem
I can whip up a decent texture for a spaceship easy in Corel (I don't know why I use Corel, leave me alone )
Anyways I've edited the models so here is two options (I like the first )
note that both of these have highpoly counts 900-1300 I believe. They've just been rendered in OpenGL so they look smoother then they really are
I can whip up a decent texture for a spaceship easy in Corel (I don't know why I use Corel, leave me alone
)Anyways I've edited the models so here is two options (I like the first )
note that both of these have highpoly counts 900-1300 I believe. They've just been rendered in OpenGL so they look smoother then they really are
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hurleybird
- Elite
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scheherazade
- Developer
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3k is pretty ancient. with todays video cards you can go up to 15 and not see a framerate difference. no point in hanging on to couple year old limits of what was considered as the high end of the scale.
this is actually exaggerated by the no-animation support (animated meshes are stored redundantly for each frame. so the 1 frame meshes we have have a small memory impact)
and the lack of terrain polygons. games like quake3 have the environment sucking up the vast majority of the on screen polygons, even though plugin models are easilly 3K. so with no environment to deal with, vegastrike models can be way larger than 3k.
-scheherazade
this is actually exaggerated by the no-animation support (animated meshes are stored redundantly for each frame. so the 1 frame meshes we have have a small memory impact)
and the lack of terrain polygons. games like quake3 have the environment sucking up the vast majority of the on screen polygons, even though plugin models are easilly 3K. so with no environment to deal with, vegastrike models can be way larger than 3k.
-scheherazade
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pontiac
- Elite
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I think Vegastrike is intended to run on every kind of computer/3d-card, so you can even play it in software mode with a high fps-count.
The problem with polycounts that high is that people with a crappy/ancient/lacking 3D card (including myself
) can't play the game without much pain.
So there are two possible solutions:
*limit the polycount to something smaller (see max polycount suggestions here under "Creating Objects")
*or use LOD for the model, which is (sometimes much) more work for the modeller
have you tried this?:
*RMB->Segment by ->Feature Detection
*maybe tweaking the colors a bit
*continue -> Unfold
or is this the painful way for you?
I know the texuring howto is a bit *crappy*, so just tell me what cost you the most time (except for crashes) when modelling, so maybe i can help you on that.
Pontiac
PS: A real animation ability for meshes would be great
The problem with polycounts that high is that people with a crappy/ancient/lacking 3D card (including myself
) can't play the game without much pain.So there are two possible solutions:
*limit the polycount to something smaller (see max polycount suggestions here under "Creating Objects")
*or use LOD for the model, which is (sometimes much) more work for the modeller
My mind is a bit slow todayKleiZwei wrote: I read it, it's just a pain in the @$$ to hunt down every last face and asign it to a colour in the UV mapper, Texturing it after that point.... No Problem
have you tried this?:*RMB->Segment by ->Feature Detection
*maybe tweaking the colors a bit
*continue -> Unfold
or is this the painful way for you?
I know the texuring howto is a bit *crappy*
, so just tell me what cost you the most time (except for crashes) when modelling, so maybe i can help you on that.
Which release do you have installed?KleiZwei wrote:The number one problem though is Wings3D crashes alot, causing me to reinstall... (just tedious)
Pontiac
PS: A real animation ability for meshes would be great
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KleiZwei
- Mercenary
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I have wings3d 0.98.09 It crashes alot when I use bevels, bumps, and the uv mapper... mostly on bevels... oh and the smooth command it friggen hates that smooth command. There was also one point where it would crash when I loaded my model back up to make the edits for options 1 and 2.
Anyways I scrapped the second one and textured the first, it's nothing special and i'll probably redo the texture...(using the spraypaint, motionblur and pixelate commands is just.... unproffesional... but a nice time saver.
The most time consuming part about the UV map is that ship I modelled has a whole right through the middle (I don't know if you can tell by the jpgs) and It's a pain trying to get the camer angles right so you can asign the faces. So then I selected every face, selected the colour, de-selected the faces i wanted to be the first colour and applied the second and so on... till I had gotten all the details, after that I just assumed the rest was the hull of the ship and could care less.
Anyways I scrapped the second one and textured the first, it's nothing special and i'll probably redo the texture...(using the spraypaint, motionblur and pixelate commands is just.... unproffesional... but a nice time saver.
The most time consuming part about the UV map is that ship I modelled has a whole right through the middle (I don't know if you can tell by the jpgs) and It's a pain trying to get the camer angles right so you can asign the faces. So then I selected every face, selected the colour, de-selected the faces i wanted to be the first colour and applied the second and so on... till I had gotten all the details, after that I just assumed the rest was the hull of the ship and could care less.
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pontiac
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The latest (0.98.09) Wings3D release is a bit crash-friendly.
Please use the stable version (0.98.08e) instead.
I also changed the download instruction in the Ship Howto to say this too.
If you found bugs in the latest (unstable) release you can report these in the bug report Thread here. (you must have/create an account there)
I think a few of you your mentioned bugs are already reported there.
The inner faces of an object are always a bit tricky to select.
Here some tips for face selection:
*To deselect faces just press ctrl + draw a rectangle over the faces (rectangel must start out of object)
*This in comination with the x,y z and SHIFT+x,y,z - keys in ortho-mode
is a very powerfull way to select/deselect specific faces.
* use the + and - keys to make your selection bigger/smaller
* play with the selection modes (faces/vertices/edges) to see the selection behaviour. It is sometimes very helpful.
I also updated the Texturing Howto with some links to other tutorials.
Pontiac
Please use the stable version (0.98.08e) instead.
I also changed the download instruction in the Ship Howto to say this too.
If you found bugs in the latest (unstable) release you can report these in the bug report Thread here. (you must have/create an account there)
I think a few of you your mentioned bugs are already reported there.
The inner faces of an object are always a bit tricky to select.
Here some tips for face selection:
*To deselect faces just press ctrl + draw a rectangle over the faces (rectangel must start out of object)
*This in comination with the x,y z and SHIFT+x,y,z - keys in ortho-mode
is a very powerfull way to select/deselect specific faces.
* use the + and - keys to make your selection bigger/smaller
* play with the selection modes (faces/vertices/edges) to see the selection behaviour. It is sometimes very helpful.
I also updated the Texturing Howto with some links to other tutorials.
Pontiac
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Darkmage
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keep those poly counts down... as you say now yes the hardware can do it... but you're forgetting.. we're planning on implementing a FULL TERRAIN system soon.... planets WILL have valleys/canyons, only this time we're planning to implement it in a much smarter/proffesional way. The new foggy atmosphere effect is just the beginning.
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hurleybird
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hellcatv
- Developer
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well I'm not going to have time to add terrain in the forseeable future...
but if someone does I'm all for it !
I did some testing a while back, but it proved to be a bit unfeasable without some real planning and thought...neither of which I have time for-- at least until 0.4.0 is out...
and that won't be for a while.
As for you, hurley--congrats on the PHPBBcode promotion
256 posts! w00t
besides...if computers can do ships reasonably well with high polycount-- then it's fine
terrain would be orders of magnitude bigger in polys than any ship would be
so what's adding a few more straws to the camels back
I think 2048 polys per ship is resonable 4096 for capships
as you can tell I have upgraded
but if someone does I'm all for it !
I did some testing a while back, but it proved to be a bit unfeasable without some real planning and thought...neither of which I have time for-- at least until 0.4.0 is out...
and that won't be for a while.
As for you, hurley--congrats on the PHPBBcode promotion
256 posts! w00t
besides...if computers can do ships reasonably well with high polycount-- then it's fine
terrain would be orders of magnitude bigger in polys than any ship would be
so what's adding a few more straws to the camels back
I think 2048 polys per ship is resonable 4096 for capships
as you can tell I have upgraded
Vega Strike Lead Developer
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
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hurleybird
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