Where do I get ship/weapon information

[Dogstar]

Hi,

Having had this game sitting on my hard-drive for over a year, I finally decided to have a look and see what it was all about. While I've found it to have a considerable amount of depth and promise, I've found the lack of data regarding ship and weapon selection very frustrating.

The main problem is that there doesn't seem to be any kind of tool, either in the game or on-line, that lets you examine and compare ship stats. I know that you can look at these figures when viweing them in a ship dealer, but any stat is meaningless unless it can be compared to other stats. How about the ships that are not available? How can I know if spending 400,000 on a mil-specced Pacifier is a good deal unless I've seen what else is available and how it measures up?

As for guns/missiles, I would of thought that *somebody* would have produced a grid outlining all the various weapons available by now, making it easier to comapre damage output, range, cost, etc. before making your ship/weapon selection. At the moment the only options seem to be: A) throw your hard-earned money away on trial-and-error tests or B) lok for a post on the forums from someone who seems to know what they are talking about and run with that. For a game with such depth and such an array of ship, weapon and upgrade choices I'm quite surprised that some sort of tool available. Am I just missing it? And if there isn't such a tool, is there an easy way to find this data in the source code?

[klauss]

I know it's not the most efficient way of comparison ever, but checking the specs on one ship, remembering them and then selecting the other tends to work well. Missiles and guns too.

And if they're not available on the same base, you can write them down (no in-game notebook available yet, so just a plain old paper notebook) - the key points at least.

As for the other models out there, the whole point of the game is to slowly discover them. It's not meant to be all available from the start - you'll have to travel a bit to find some kinds of ships, and it's a good thing. It makes the game more interesting rather than not.

[Dogstar]

Fair point, but it can get a little frustrating if you're accustomed to fine tuning your abilities/gear/hardware. Some of us like that aspect of games as much as the game itself.

However, I would like to know about the combat system and damage calculations. Is there different types of damage? Are some weapons more effective against shield than the hull/armour? Or vise versa? What's so special about the "special" missiles? Is all damage calculated linearly or is there such a thing as damage mitigation/absorbtion?

I've only really been able to get tidbits from the forums (and usually while looking up something else entirely). Is there any deeper discussions of the game engine apart from the basic gameplay manual?

Yeah, trading is boring - I wanna blow stuff up. Lots of stuff. And as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[klauss]

Fair point, but it can get a little frustrating if you're accustomed to fine tuning your abilities/gear/hardware. Some of us like that aspect of games as much as the game itself.

Well, you'll have to do your homework then and start writing down stats on a notebook.
Perhaps an in-game notebook would come in handy, but for now that's the option.
(I've been proposing an in-game notebook for a while now, but we just don't have time to give those small projects any love, there are too many bigger fish to fry)

However, I would like to know about the combat system and damage calculations. Is there different types of damage?

There's regular damage (which applies - linearly - to shields, and then to the hull). Its linearity is somewhat offset by the rate at which any weapon can apply damage (limits imposed by refire rate and bolt damage for bolt-like guns, or damage rate for beam weapons) and shield recharge. If the shield recharges fast enough, you'll have a hard time attacking some targets.
And there's phase damage, which is damage that goes straight to the hull, bypassing shields.

There's a lot of canon written about that, but I believe the stats don't reflect it all the time. The game needs some serious stats balancing.

Yeah, trading is boring - I wanna blow stuff up. Lots of stuff. And as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Fighting in VS is Dangerous with capital D. Any skirmish with any faction, right now, starts a snowball that will get you in a heap of trouble real soonish.

I think there's a pending patch for that... hmm... where was it?

[Rattan]

If you were born in the VS universe, you wouldn't know everything at first. While it would make sense that you could probably look some of the stats up in a library or whatever, you'd have to travel around and ask questions and see what's available and etc. Not like it'd do you a lot of good to know that some particular weapon and/or ship was what you're looking for if you still had to go and explore to find a place where you could buy it anyway. I think exploration and the learning curve are a very intentional part of the game.

I'd say pretty much all the ships and weapons are worth the money, but they aren't necessarily good for every situation. That's why most of us have a fleet of ships and we pick what we need for a given mission or activity. If you just want a lot of fights, that's possibly the easiest thing to manage. If you just start shooting at anything that moves (and some things that don't like stations), you'll soon have lots of fighting to do. The factions/political aspect of this game is amazing that way, it's real easy to make a lot of enemies real fast.

Actually surviving and winning those fights now, that'll be up to your skill and what ships/weapons/upgrades you've bought. And very likely you'll quickly have far more enemies than you can actually cope with and be restarting the game or heading off to some other game. Enough that it's difficult to even navigate, much less make enough money to keep your ship even just repaired. But if that's what you're looking for, it's easy to get. LOL

[Dogstar]

Fighting in VS is Dangerous with capital D. Any skirmish with any faction, right now, starts a snowball that will get you in a heap of trouble real soonish.

It's OK. I've done my homework and have discovered, partially through experience and partially through reading the forums, that killing pirates, Luddites and Uln (in moderation) keeps nearly everyone happy. Even the Aera were friendly before my savegame became irretrievably corrupted - gah!

If you were born in the VS universe, you wouldn't know everything at first. While it would make sense that you could probably look some of the stats up in a library or whatever, you'd have to travel around and ask questions and see what's available and etc..

True enough, for ships and weapons from exotic locations and alien species, but surely if you're buying a Pacifier from a friendly barracks then it would at least come with a user manual? And if you're kitting it out with standard, readily-available weapons then surely somebody would be able to tell you what it actually does? In particular, there's a lot of missiles that are listed as "special," but it's not always immediately obvious exactly what they do. The same goes for certain upgrades. A second hull might seem like a good idea, if the only effect is to improve the amount of damage your ship can take (as the description suggests) but logically I would expect things like ship manoeuverability and acceleration ratings to be adversly affected but by how much?

It seems the only way of discovering such things at the moment is by expensive or time-consuming trial-and-error tests. I know the idea of an in-game "ship designer" is, at best, probably a long way off, but I would like to be able to have some way of working out the raw stats before committing my hard-earned cash. With a game of this depth, with such an array of avaiable ship, upgrades, guns and missiles available, taking notes on the fly can only go so far. Basically, it's not really enough for me to point my guns at stuff and see how fast they die - I want to be able to "look under the hood" and see what makes my ship tick.

[klauss]

Have you identified any effect of any upgrade/weapon that isn't accurately portraid in its description or stats page?

I'm more than open to patches/reports on that matter.

Normally, the stats page tells you enough. But true, I've seen missiles that only say "special" and nothing else, and it's weird. I'm not sure what the effect of those missiles really is, and if you can confirm the effects to me (I suspect the effects are null - ie: they do nothing), I can certainly investigate and patch the description. Or you could patch the description yourself and send a patch. In any case, it needs fixing.

If those missiles do something, which I somewhat suspect isn't the case.

[Rattan]

Point taken, Dogstar. But when you go to where the ship is available and click on it, there's quite a lot of information presented in its stats. Much of it is a bit technical, but it's a whole lot of info about the ship that you can see before you buy it. The same is true of *most* of the weapons and other ship gear. For most people, the info you see before actually buying the ship or weapon or whatever would probably be overkill, if anything. The "shady mechanic tweaks" aren't always explained in such depth, but hey... it's a shady mechanic. There's usually at least enough info given to understand why you might want to buy it. There are threads here on the forum where people discuss their favourite ships, weapons and upgrades, sometimes at great length.

I'll agree, trading does feel tedious at first. But basically you're working to get your ship up to where it can run well enough to make cash a bit easier and eventually you build up enough game money to have a decent ship and some investment capital to be able to trade in more expensive items. By the time you get up to things like buying and selling AI cores, money is pretty easy to get and you can put together a fleet of all sorts of ships for different occasions.

I have 9 ships that are pretty much equipped to the teeth, and something over 300 mil in the bank. But for the first couple months I was playing, it was some slow going. I had to scrape enough together to get jump capability so I could get to systems with better trade potentials than the starting system, and I had to save up enough for a real cargo ship (Plowshare) so I could haul enough of a load at once to make what seemed like serious money at the time. Each ship is different and you learn things like how heavy you can load it before it starts to handle like crap and even a hop between two planets in the same system take forever. LOL Then I outfitted a small fighter (Dostoevsky) so I could do some limited bounty hunting and other mission.

I have no idea how much I've actually spent on my little fleet. I also sometimes will go for a week or month without playing, while I go and play other games. So what I have is relatively little compared to what someone would have who played the game more than I have over the past couple years. It's not really that much, either. If I found a planet/base selling a Clydesdale and decided to buy one, it'd easily take half of my "life savings" or more to buy it and trick it out.

And a thing you should know about some of those exotic ships and gear.. Some of them are exotic enough that you kinda need to add another controller and learn to use it to make use of what they can really do. Like I have a Shizu, which is a little Rlaan scout type ship. I have to hook in a gamepad or second joystick (in addition to my usual joystick and keyboard) to get the most out of it, since in addition to the usual forward/reverse thrust, it also has vertical and lateral thrusters. Once you get used to it, that makes it an utter gas to fly! You could get around sorta of with just the usual controls, but to really find out what it can do in a fight you need to practically be flying two ships at once. It's enough to make you wish for an extra hand or two (which IIRC, the Rlaan have). The HUD is different, it has no afterburners (and is fast and manoeuvrable enough that it doesn't really need them), and it can pull off moves that would be simply impossible in most other ships. It can't carry missiles, and I think the max for it is two medium guns, and it is really tiny, but I've taken out capships that had a reasonable number of escorts while flying it. Being able to strafe and jink in directions not normally even possible makes it really an amazing little thing. I found it for sale in an alien port far from the starting system while I was wandering the VS Universe looking for the way to Earth. I was "lost in space" for weeks on that little trip. LOL Eventually I figured out how to actually use the nav-map (which could really use an owner's manual with a tutorial and some examples), and eventually found my way. It was quite an adventure. I was real glad to get back into sections of space with system names that were at least human-pronounceable.

Anyway, very exotic. I wouldn't have known about the lateral and vertical thrust if I hadn't seen it mentioned somewhere on the BBS. At first I thought it was just a small lightly armed ship with an odd HUD. When I found out about the odd thrusters, I set to figuring out controllers to be actually able to use them, and flying that thing is so wild it remains one of my favourite ships in the game. But for example, you can use say the lateral thrusters and your yaw control to literally fly circles around an opponent while keeping your weapons dead on him the whole time. Heading back out into Rlaan space to try some more of their ships now that I have some funding is definitely somewhere on my to-do list.

I doubt it's the only surprise of it's kind in this game. The VS universe is vast. Much larger than most space games, as I understand it.

You mention the Pacifier. I have one of those as well. Really nice gunship. It's a bit heavy and not the fastest of turn ratios, but it can pack an awful lot of weapons, shields and armour. It's very good for when you need a good-sized warship, but I find it a bit of a chore because of the slow turn rate for everyday flying or exploration. Decked out with some big guns and missiles, a good reactor and cap bank and etc, it can be a real war wagon. I must admit (and this is kudos to whoever created it) I fell prey to the ad for the Pacifier in the splash screens. ROFL I was thinking of blowing some of the capital I'd built up on some ship that could mount a lot of weapons and take a serious pounding, and the ad actually got me to looking at the Pacifier's specs.

To get to my point, all the ships have their good points and bad points. I can't think of any that are "uberships" that are great at everything and have no drawbacks. If you either pick a ship with abilities you can make easy use of or are willing to learn to adapt to what the ship does best, this game has many great ships. Some of it is also personal tastes. I have a friend who has been playing VS longer than I have (he's the one that got me to try it, in fact), and he's flown probably every ship in the game, but *his* favourite ship is the starter Llama! His is decked out to the max, but still, it's the very same ship you start the game with. Even the noob ship is the best ship to some folks.

Anyway, Dogstar.. I sincerely hope you have as much fun out of this game as I have over the past couple years. It really is a great game, even though it's a WIP and not near "finished". I've been playing computer games since the first ones came available in the dawn of home computers, and I think I've played at least most of the classics. Vega Strike, even being a WIP and having it's problems, would rank in my personal "Top 5 Computer Space Games of All Time" list.

[Dogstar]

Thanks for the detailed post Rattan.

To understand where I'm coming from, I was clinically addicted to World of Warcraft for about eight months. In addition to simply picking up the biggest sword you can find and seeing how quickly you can kill stuff with it, that game comes with a raft of on-line support sites such as Thottbot, WowWiki and WowGear that let players learn about the highly involved combat system, and research the best spec and gear set-up for your character and playing style. As a multi-purpose Paladin, I took this aspect of the game very seriously and probably spent as much time doing the background research as I did playing the actual game.

I realise that WoW and VS are two completely different games, but they still share the similiarity in that they present a vast range of options and customisations to the player (classes, weapons and gear for WoW - ships, weapons and upgrades for VS). I was initially surprised that there wasn't a tool like WowHead available for VS, given the level of depth and the number of options available in the game. From the replies to me initial post, I can understand that this is a game of exploration and such at tool would spoil that aspect of the game. However, having seen the lengths that some players were prepared to go to in order to eke that extra 2% of damage in endgame raids in WoW, I can't get over the idea that VS short-changes us techno-geeks a little.

However, the game has most definitely gotten my attention despite my initial impressions. The depth of the gameplay and the fact that each ship has to be learned individually makes it a difficult game to leave since you never stop learning. I appreciate that it's WIP (not to to mention free!), but that's part of the attraction. I like the idea that I can be part of the development process, I just need to figure out how best I can contribute. Learning as much as I can about the "nuts-and-bolts" aspect of the game is part of that.

Anyway, I discovered at the weekend that I was playing an older version of the game than the latest stable version so I suppose it's really only fair of me to make comment about the most recent version. I'm assuming that this means re-starting the campaign?

[klauss]

I like the idea that I can be part of the development process, I just need to figure out how best I can contribute.

Well, you can report where the game leaves you clueless, within our earlier premise: that you must do some research yourself, ingame.
So if you find a weapon on sale and its description is vague and leaves you clueless (like those "special" missiles), feel free to report it, and we'll see what we can do about it. If it's not intentional. (ie: shady mechanic)

Anyway, I discovered at the weekend that I was playing an older version of the game than the latest stable version so I suppose it's really only fair of me to make comment about the most recent version. I'm assuming that this means re-starting the campaign?

Depends on how old the version you were playing was. If it's 0.4.x, then you most likely will have to - current savegames aren't compatible with 0.4.x. If it's 0.5, then you may be lucky. You'll have to experiment, but be certain to make a backup first.

[Rattan]

Please don't take this in a bad way, Dogstar, and bear in mind that I haven't ever played WoW. But learning the fine points the way you describe seems somewhat..less realistic than it could be? In a real world situation, that'd be kind of like if the person was learning things via telepathy with some near-universal source of knowledge or something, when reality is more like picking up different weapons and trying them out, asking around (and having to bear in mind that you'll get a lot more opinions than cold hard facts about weapons or gear made by some certain weaponsmith or armourer). Experience is what really teaches a person what works best for them.

I will have to say I really wish there was in in-game notepad. Ideally one that could also be used to read at least txt files (though ability to show pics and diagrams would also be nice). That way one could not only make and keep some notes, but things like weapon and ship specs could be "downloaded" while at a place that sells ships or gear so one could go over the specs at leisure on some of those long hauls and it could help with being an "informed consumer" in the game. I get around that myself by having a second machine fired up that sort of acts as my "ship's computer" while I'm playing. I also sometimes run a chat program on it, since the long hauls can get quite tedious unless you're really in a mood to just listen to the music and watch space slowly sliding by. Sometimes I am in just that sort of mood, and find it relaxing. Early on I just used a notebook and pencil though. Mostly to keep track of prices while working out a trade route and to note the locations of some useful places.

On another point, I can tell you that if you're running an old version, you're missing a lot of the "eye candy". Other than bug fixes, I think that most of the work done on the game in the past year or so has been on the visual level. Also, I don't know what you're using as a controller, but I personally feel that at least a good joystick adds a lot to my enjoyment of the game. Back when I used to play with just keyboard and mouse, I could sit down and be "gone" for an hour or two playing.. Now that I have a joystick and my "ship's computer" and a limited sort of "control panel", I pretty much fire up VS when I have a whole night clear, because I'm definitely going to be "gone" for a while. LOL

[klauss]

Please don't take this in a bad way, Dogstar, and bear in mind that I haven't ever played WoW. But learning the fine points the way you describe seems somewhat..less realistic than it could be? In a real world situation, that'd be kind of like if the person was learning things via telepathy with some near-universal source of knowledge or something, when reality is more like picking up different weapons and trying them out, asking around (and having to bear in mind that you'll get a lot more opinions than cold hard facts about weapons or gear made by some certain weaponsmith or armourer). Experience is what really teaches a person what works best for them.

And, Dogstar, if you think exchanging knowledge about weapon systems and ships in the internet is akin to doing so in a "virtual net" on the VS universe, it's not. There's no "internet" in the VS universe, because there's no globally (as in galactic) networked system. There's no way of exchanging information between systems other than sending a courier with a hard copy of the message. Still, there are drones that "deliver mail" - but it's slow, more similar to snailmail than email or the internet.

In fact, I think relay stations are exactly that

We're saying: it's ok if you want to play it that way. But it's not "the official way", you're missing on what we consider is an important part of gameplay. But by no means should you change your way of playing the game, it's your way and it suits you. If we can support your way without spoiling it for the others, ok, but adding extensive spoilers like you mentioned on your first post would certainly spoil it for the others. I repeat, though: I'm open to more conservative suggestions.

[Rattan]

Well, there might be something kind of like the internet when in a system. But it's very limited. Like checking the cargo/merchandise possibilities for different planets and ships when you first hit a system. To get info like actual ship specs and etc for what is available, one has to land. Then one has to go to the appropriate section of the planet or ship or station, etc to buy and sell or check on what ships/gear and maybe mods are available, catch up on the news, check the bulletin board or bar for possible missions and etc. It might be feasible that there would be some futuristic sort of "wifi" or whatever and all that info could be checked without leaving your ship after you land, but one would lose that feeling of "stretching your legs for a bit" and one wouldn't see the local scenery that's there in some places.

What might be cool is if you could "download" some types of info or fiction,maybe new music etc for later perusal on your ship when you're back in space. Maybe purchase an allegedly correct map from another trader. It wouldn't need to be a map that goes into the nav-computer, just a list of stops and merch that they claim is a "sure thing" trade route (which may or may not be true).

But considering the speeds and distances involved, sometimes "high speed communication" would actually be someone maybe hiring the player to deliver a document. LOL There is no sign of a comprehensive internet in the game and even the news is always pretty local. Any sort of data transmission would be very slow considering how far a ship can go in just a few jumps, and it almost certainly wouldn't be two-way communication for most of it. Even the merch info I mentioned checking when first entering a system, it'd be more likely tuning in to a trade info beacon on each of the places with trade offered than logging into anything like the internet.

[Rattan]

Pardon the double-post, but I was just thinking, "pony express" type courier missions could be an interesting addition. They'd usually involve hopping several systems (some of which might contain hostiles) and the amount they pay could start dropping as soon as the theoretical minimum time it'd take to deliver the message is exceeded. Delivery would require either landing at the destination or maybe getting about as close as one does for scans on recon missions, so the data could be transmitted to the destination ship via scrambled short range radio or something like that.

[Dogstar]

Please don't take this in a bad way, Dogstar, and bear in mind that I haven't ever played WoW. But learning the fine points the way you describe seems somewhat..less realistic than it could be?

I understand your point, but it's not *necessarily* less realistic, it just depends how such a system is implemented. Certainly an online tool that gives ship, weapon and upgrade spoilers would reduce the realism a little, but an in-game tool would allow you to test and compare only those items that you've seen at a dealer, thus keeping the realism aspect of the game reasonably intact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a complaint about the game - it's really more of an observation from the viewpoint of a new player taking the game up for the first time. The thing is, some games like to keep things simple and present the gamer with a limited range of characters, weapons, vehicles, armour, or whatever, while other appeal to armchair greasemonkeys, giving the player a huge number of options and tools that allows them to test the various options. The most obvious analogy is car-racing games where some will have an in-game garage that lets the gamer tinker with their car and fine tune the settings while giving them a huge choice of customisation options, while others simply give them a car, a race-track and a scantily-clad navigator. On initial impressions, VS looks like a greasemonkey's game, so I was surprised that there wasn't some sort of tool that appeases us stat-nerds.

Experience is what really teaches a person what works best for them.

True, but to use the WoW analogy as used above, that game has a highly-involved character customisation and combat system. Using a tool like WowGear can let the gamer fine-tune stats like hit points, damage reduction, damage avoidance, damage output, mana generation, etc., etc., but only experience tell the player what stats they need to concentrate on, and what combinations work well together. A customistion tool in VS wouldn't replace experience and exploration, it would just help de-mystify the upgrade possibilities.

However, the problem is that while an in-game "garage" tool would be more realistic and in keeping with the role-playing element of the game, it would also be a lot more difficult to build than an out-of-game one, which could be nothing more than a spreadsheet file that someone hacked together, so it's unlikely that such an in-game tool will appear any time soon.

I will have to say I really wish there was in in-game notepad. Ideally one that could also be used to read at least txt files (though ability to show pics and diagrams would also be nice). That way one could not only make and keep some notes, but things like weapon and ship specs could be "downloaded" while at a place that sells ships or gear so one could go over the specs at leisure on some of those long hauls and it could help with being an "informed consumer" in the game.

Actually I think the game would benefit from two separate tools: the first for the sort of under-the-hood tinkering that I described above that lets the gamer play around with various ship configurations, the other would be a virtual accountant that keeps track of the gamers sales and purchases. Unliks the garage, the accountant *should* be relatively easy to keep, and would not sacrifice realism, after all you would expect a travelling merchant to have such software.

[klauss]

Please don't take this in a bad way, Dogstar, and bear in mind that I haven't ever played WoW. But learning the fine points the way you describe seems somewhat..less realistic than it could be?

I understand your point, but it's not *necessarily* less realistic, it just depends how such a system is implemented. Certainly an online tool that gives ship, weapon and upgrade spoilers would reduce the realism a little, but an in-game tool would allow you to test and compare only those items that you've seen at a dealer, thus keeping the realism aspect of the game reasonably intact.

Perhaps we could hack something like that quickly.

Ie: make the upgrade interface have a checkbox allowing it to show unavailable items (that you've seen somewhere else).

I'll add the ticket.

[Rattan]

I would certainly not be averse to the idea of scantily clad navigators, but most likely any requests for such would have to wait for the infamous "port to the OGRE engine".

Using a tool like WowGear can let the gamer fine-tune stats like hit points, damage reduction, damage avoidance, damage output, mana generation, etc., etc., but only experience tell the player what stats they need to concentrate on, and what combinations work well together.

Here we may be looking at a fundamental difference. You might have noted when you started playing VS that it didn't ask you what character class you wanted or do any equivalent of rolling for stats. Who and what you are in VegaStrike all depends on what you do and how you play. You start with a used spaceship and very little money, and everything from then on is up to you and your choices. Whether you want to be a peaceful trader or a pirate or work with the military or whatever, you figure out what you might need as equipment and you go to it. Or try to, anyway. You won't likely be very good at it at first, but that is not a matter of experience points. Vega Strike doesn't have any inherent advantage for a player who has been playing a long time.

You get better over time at things like flying, docking, fighting, trading, doing missions, whatever. There is no difference in how the game treats you, the difference is in what your eyes and hands and mind have actually learned how to do. I've been playing for a couple years, you've been playing for a little while, but we would both be just as easy to kill and our "stamina" or "constitution" would not be different. If you want to be a fighter or bounty hunter, then that is what you focus on, if you want to be a trader or explorer, then you focus on that. Realistically, it will take a combination of "jobs" to get to where you want to be, no matter what that goal is. It takes some money to get a ship outfitted and to maintain it no matter what you want to do with it, so everyone is at least a bit of a trader. As you build up some money and trick out your ship(s), that attracts the attention of others who will try to take it from you, so everyone is at least a bit of a fighter unless they have a real crush going on "the Mistress" shown on the death screen. LOL

You aren't locked into any sort of a character type. There is no scoreboard and no way to win the game. Like life, if you survive, you can go on. If you get get tired of being a trader and gear up with some good weapons and tractor beams and etc to go into being a space pirate.. You just do it. There isn't really any character class and no advantages within the game for one role over another, the game doesn't favour an experienced player over a newbie. It's mostly you and what you can do and what you can figure out.

Vega Strike isn't the first space game with this sort of structure. The first that I know of was the game "Elite". At first, Elite couldn't get signed for distribution contracts and etc because companies they went to told them things like "Well, set it up with a high score board and three lives and we'll think about it." LOL The idea of a game that was open ended and had no character types, no scoreboards, and no "You Win!" moment were very alien to game companies of the time. But it built up a following and has a cult following as a classic game even to this day. It's not to everyone's taste, but neither is WoW or any other game.

I've played quite a few of the classic space games over the years, and in VegaStrike, I "didn't know my arse from an asteroid" for the first couple of months. I died a lot, I was broke a lot. I made some bad decisions on my actions or what gear I bought or when I was pinching a penny to try and afford an upgrade when I should have been putting it into something else. I learned the consequences, and as time passed, I figured out things that work for me.

The ship/gear stats are important, but it's almost impossible to say what is best. What will be good for one person may not be good for another and the hottest ship in the galaxy may be nothing but a deathtrap if you don't have the hands, eyes and experience to dock it or to handle it to your advantage in a fight.

One place where I will definitely agree with you, though, is that an accounting system might be nice. Realistically, a trader would have some sort of books, and doing it with pencil and paper would be very laborious. It could be nice to be able to see some graphs and see if one is actually making more money with one trade route than with another, or be able to check back and see where you got some item when you find a place where it's in demand. But honestly, it would be of limited use since the economy is subject to change along with the factions/politics. That's a side to the game that probably wouldn't be obvious to you yet. At least as I understand it, from the moment you start a new game, things are happening in far away systems you haven't ever even seen yet, battles are going on to decide what faction is currently controlling what system, the tables may turn at any time and a system may fall to a different faction. The VS universe is dynamic and will evolve to be different for each person who plays the game. Go out to that planet that used to be a nice easy trade route spot owned by a friendly species and it may be owned by somebody else who isn't friendly. Who is friendly to you and who isn't is not something that's fixed either. Enough sweet talk and the right actions can eventually get you in good with about anybody.. at the cost of no longer being friends with some race that happens to be their enemy. So having accounting spreadsheets would maybe be nice on some levels, but it wouldn't be as valuable as it is in some games where prices and politics are static.

And yeah, I tend to write long-winded posts, which is why I *usually* try not to post too often. LOL But what I'm trying to say is that a lot of the sorts of stats you're talking about tweaking with WoWGear really don't exist in VegaStrike, and it's not how the game plays.

[Laraso]

Dogstar, if you really want to see the differences of each weapon, open up weapons_list.xml (found in the root vegastrike directory) in your favorite text editing software (I recommend NP++), and it should tell you every last difference of the weapons themselves.

If you need further information, download CSV Editor (should be somewhere on this forum, or check the wiki) and open up either units.csv or master_parts_list.csv using said editor (units.csv can be found in the units folder of the root vegastrike directory).

The units.csv holds the statistics for each ship in the game, it also has statistics for all other entities in the game.

The master_part_list.csv is the shop data for every buyable item in the game.

Using these three files (weapons_list.xml, units.csv, and master_part_list.csv) it is possible to create your own weapons and configure them to be purchasable in-game.

If you find yourself still wanting an external tool of some sorts, look for VSTrade. It shows the full Vega Strike map, can give you directions from one system to another, and will show what planets/stations carry which types of merchandise, and where you can buy it.

[Dogstar]

Here we may be looking at a fundamental difference.

True, to an extent - much of my gaming experience has been around heavily stat-based RPG's - but the kind of stats I'm talking about aren't quite the same as character stats of most RPG's.To explain what I mean, take the street racing game Juiced.

As it's a driving game, you don't get to pick any kind of character stats, but you do get to pick your car, the upgrades, the BHP, the mods, etc. With enough money anyone can build any car but that won't necessarily make you a better driver. On the contrary, the more powerful the car, the more difficult it is to control - approaching a hair-pin bend doing 70 in a stock Peugeot 206 is a lot easier to manage than approaching it at 200 in an upgraded Viper. Ability in that game only come from practice, practice and more practice, and each car will have it's own strengths and it's own issues.

Likewise, in VS your ability to fly a ship is not based on it's stats, but your decision to buy it is, so obviously you will want to know exactly what you are getting and if you're getting the best value for your hard-earned cash. It's quite a different idea to the character points systems of RPG's, which tend to be a fixed permanent decision. From the very beginning of such games, you have to make a fundamental decision what sort of character you want to play and how you will play it. Your choices from then on are usually very limited. In VS, as in Juiced, if you don't like your vehicle, sell it and get a new one - quite a different design philosophy.

Anyway, I’ve tried out the most recent version of the game and I have to say I’m very impressed with how far it has developed. The bases have much bigger (hence more realistic) stocks, the skies are much more populated, and there seems to be even more variety and choice to the game. Unfortunately, this all comes at a price that my brontosaurus of a PC can’t afford, even at the lowest settings, so I’ve not been playing the game much recently. I will get it upgraded eventually, but a new computer is rather low on my list of priorities at the moment.

In the meantime, I’d like to learn more about the game, the design philosophy, the universe, etc. I keep finding out little bits about VS canon on the forums, but I don’t know if this canon is available in one place, or is it an organic concept that depends on the whim of the developers? Could someone point me in the right direction on this?

[Gungnir]

Here we may be looking at a fundamental difference.

In the meantime, I’d like to learn more about the game, the design philosophy, the universe, etc. I keep finding out little bits about VS canon on the forums, but I don’t know if this canon is available in one place, or is it an organic concept that depends on the whim of the developers? Could someone point me in the right direction on this?

I think klauss has a design document (at least part of one), but I may be wrong.

[klauss]

I think klauss has a design document (at least part of one), but I may be wrong.

I don't have it, I had found a text file in the repository once that talks about weapons, shields and such stuff, but I can't remember where it was.

[Gungnir]

I think klauss has a design document (at least part of one), but I may be wrong.

I don't have it, I had found a text file in the repository once that talks about weapons, shields and such stuff, but I can't remember where it was.

Oh, my bad.

[Rattan]

I'm not really sure how formally developed the canon is. I got what little I know from the documents listed in this thread:

http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... =11&t=2254

Back to the point of weapon and ship specs, having given it some thought, I guess I really don't know that you're looking for, Dogstar.

Say I'm at a weapons dealer and I'm thinking of trying a different weapon. I look at the specs the dealer provides in the description. For the sake of example, let's say I have Jackhammer and I'm thinking about a Heavy Ion Beam instead..

Both weapons take a "Heavy Beam" slot to mount. The Heavy Ion Beam's specs read:

Damage - 1,431 MJ/s
Range - 5,781 meters
Energy Usage - 4,000 MJ/s
Phase Damage - 243 MJ
Beam Stability - .5 seconds
Range Attenuation Factor - 12.1% per km

and the Jackhammer's specs read:

Damage - 270 MJ/s
Range - 23,125 meters
Energy Usage - 7,500 MJ/s
Refire Delay .37 seconds
Phase Damage 864 MJ
Beam Stability - .12 seconds
Range Attenuation Factor - 1.08% per km

Those specs tell me quite a bit. At first glance, it looks like the HIB (Heavy Ion Beam) does a lot more damage.. And it does! But only at very close ranges. Within a km, it'd be fairly devastating. However, with that range attenuation, it'd be more what I'd use for a close in dogfight. The Jackhammer does "less damage", but it's attenuated by less than a quarter all the way at the edge of it's 23km effective range. So as a long range weapon, it'd do a reasonable amount of damage even if I stayed out of the reach of the weapons most opponents would be likely to have. It also does more "phase damage", which means it'll damage an opponent some even through his shields.

So the Jackhammer would rip up an opponent at a distance pretty well, and if they make it into close range, I can switch to another weapon (assuming my ship has enough mounts to have a choice) to something that will really rip the snot out of his damaged ship/shields, like the HIB.

There's more stuff I can tell from the data on each of those weapons, but what I've mentioned so far is enough for a quick example.

Which I would choose would depend on things like my fighting style and what I'm outfitting the particular ship for. For bounty hunting where I might go up against a cap ship, the Jackhammer would be very nice for taking out turrets before I even come in range, to make a "clear zone" I can come in fast on and hit it with missiles. But for close in dogfighting such as might occur on a typical cargo run, I might prefer a weapon that does more damage at close range and eats a bit less energy per second.

The info on ships at the dealer is also important when deciding which (or if) to buy. I can switch back and forth between ships on the list at the dealer to compare specs, but it's easier to have all the specs jotted down in a notebook for all the ships (and their weapons) that you actually own already. There's even more data available about ships than there is weapons (and other gear).

Vegastrike has always seemed to me to be a game where there is far more info available in-game about the ships and weapons and etc than most other games out there. It's one of the things I've always liked about it. LOL So I guess I don't really understand what it is that you feel is missing? Ok, some items and features are a bit more vague than others, but the basics like ships and weapons are pretty well covered in the data you see when you click on them at a dealer *before* you buy them. So what am I missing here?

[-REBEL3-]

I've got a copy of both the VS ship guide and the VS Canon guide, complete with spoilers. PM me for either or both